Beethoven, what if?...?

[Zon]

Just for fun.....
What if the Master were here today? Considering all the cool technology we have available, (not that B would be accepting of it) what 'kind' of music do you think he would be creating? And which modern musicians would he like?

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'How can I, a musician, say to people "I am deaf!" I shall, if I can, defy this fate, even though there will be times when I shall be the unhappiest of God's creatures ... I live only in music ... frequently working on three or four pieces simultaneously.' - Ludwig van Beethoven

[Peter]

Impossible to answer! Prokofiev tried this with Haydn and produced his 'Classical Symphony' - it was meant to suggest the sort of symphony Haydn may have written in 1917 when he would have been 185! Beethoven was known to be out of sympathy with the early Romantics, but it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to go from the Grosse Fugue into the 20th century and the world of Bartok. As to what he would have made of 20th century music in general is anyones guess - I suspect he would have found much to admire and would have been more impressed by Bartok than Wagner. I could of course be completely wrong!


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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

Maybe B., listening today's music, would be please to be deaf...

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Claudie

[Zon]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Maybe B., listening today's music, would be please to be deaf...

LOL!!!

[Rei]

Originally posted by Zon:
Just for fun.....
What if the Master were here today? Considering all the cool technology we have available, (not that B would be accepting of it) what 'kind' of music do you think he would be creating? And which modern musicians would he like?

What I want to know is what he would think of this new kind of music coming out. I've just gone to a concert where a trio played some of this 'morden' music. There lot's of clashes and it didn't sound too nice...but my music teacher says not many people understands this kind of music.
What would Beethoven think...?

[Zon]

Interesting perspective. I ask the question; if B were alive today (not having ever been before) would he be able to create the music he did, utilizing modern instrumentation? Keeping in mind that much of todays youth is soo heavily influenced by MTV and such, which consists of predominately pop ballads made up of an 8 measure loop lasting 3 minutes. 200 years ago it was not uncommon for people to sit down for a performance lasting for 2 hours or more, consisting of a single mind blowing composition.!!

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'How can I, a musician, say to people "I am deaf!" I shall, if I can, defy this fate, even though there will be times when I shall be the unhappiest of God's creatures ... I live only in music ... frequently working on three or four pieces simultaneously.' - Ludwig van Beethoven

[This message has been edited by Zon (edited 10-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Zon (edited 10-03-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Zon:
Interesting perspective. I ask the question; if B were alive today (not having ever been before) would he be able to create the music he did?

No it would be impossible for Beethoven to have written the music he did in today's world - he and his music were of their time and could not have been created either before or after he lived.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
No it would be impossible for Beethoven to have written the music he did in today's world - he and his music were of their time and could not have been created either before or after he lived.

I'm not sure about this, Peter. The Grosse Fuge and Hymn of Thanksgiving from Quartet, Op.132, or the fugues from the sonatas, Opp.106 and 110 can hardly be said to belong to 1820s Vienna. They are examples of late Beethoven which transcend time and place, stretching their idiom to a plateau without convenient boundaries of understanding.

This music will never be old-fashioned.

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I'm not sure about this, Peter. The Grosse Fuge and Hymn of Thanksgiving from Quartet, Op.132, or the fugues from the sonatas, Opp.106 and 110 can hardly be said to belong to 1820s Vienna. They are examples of late Beethoven which transcend time and place, stretching their idiom to a plateau without convenient boundaries of understanding.

This music will never be old-fashioned.

I know what you are saying and of course in a sense you are right, all great music is timeless, but paradoxically of its time as well. Even a work such as the Grosse fugue still falls within the bounds of classical tonality. No one can argue that Beethoven's harmonic language ever anticipates the 20th century in the way the Prelude to Tristan does or Liszt's Bagatelle in no key.

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'Man know thyself'

[joel fienen]

hey Zon
You should read the replies Kids on Music. I am interested in what you have to say.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Zon:
200 years ago it was not uncommon for people to sit down for a performance lasting for 2 hours or more, consisting of a single mind blowing composition.!!

In Handel's case, 2 hours would have been a short piece! The audience would have left feeling 'short changed'!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Zon]

Speaking of which... at these performances in Beethovens' time. What would the audience have consisted of? Only rich? middle class? or anyone?

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"To play without passion is inexcusable!" - Ludwig van Beethoven

[Peter]

Originally posted by Zon:
Speaking of which... at these performances in Beethovens' time. What would the audience have consisted of? Only rich? middle class? or anyone?

I think the main group in attendance at public Symphonic concerts would have been the middle classes who were a growing force throughout the 19th century. There was an enormous enthusiasm amongst the middle classes for new music and amateur music making (and a lot of these amateurs were highly skilled).

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'Man know thyself'

[NickB]

Originally posted by PDG:
I'm not sure about this, Peter. The Grosse Fuge and Hymn of Thanksgiving from Quartet, Op.132, or the fugues from the sonatas, Opp.106 and 110 can hardly be said to belong to 1820s Vienna. They are examples of late Beethoven which transcend time and place, stretching their idiom to a plateau without convenient boundaries of understanding.

This music will never be old-fashioned.

Absolutely.

The view I have come to hold is that B, if he lived in our time, simply would not have been the same person, and as such, he wouldn't have composed in the way he did. B was a product of his time, and the particular circumstances of his life. All the factors which influenced his life must have influenced the music he composed.

It's hard to imagine the impact that modern technology (electric lights, pen & paper, recording equipment, even computers) would have on his composition. And of course, if modern medicine were to have improved his hearing...then who knows what his work would have been like.

It's possible that we have had other people with talent & ability similar to B's since B, but that such people simply haven't realized their talents, perhaps because they weren't as challenged as B was by virtue of B's particular life circumstances.

Regardless, Op. 132's Thanksgiving would very likely have been pre-empted by our modern treatments for stomach ailments such as collitis--to the extent that he wouldn't have been so sick for as long to have inspired the work--at least in the same way.

I prefer to wonder about what music would be like today if B had lived to be 80......

[Peter]

Originally posted by NickB:
I prefer to wonder about what music would be like today if B had lived to be 80......

Or had Mozart and Schubert!
Both these composers were going through stylistic changes at the ends of their lives and who knows what the world lost by their early deaths. It's also possible with Beethoven that he may have done a Haydn and produced his greatest works in his 60's - certainly his genius showed no sign of waning.

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'Man know thyself'