Thematic index.

[Enrique]

Opening an old book containing the scores of Beethoven's piano sonatas, I see a sort of thematic index, more especifically the entries consist of the first few bars of the sonata, written in a single staff, the entries being sorted by the sonata number.

Is there anything like this for a work like the Mass in D major, with an entry for each number? Example: in a traditional Mass, you have something like

1. Kyrie eleison.
2. Christe eleison.
3. Kyrie eleison.
.......
24. Dona nobis pacem.

These parts I call numbers (others call them movements, I think). The question as formulated asks for a categorical answer, so I'll change to: do you know any score with such an index in the case of B's ciclical/large works?

[Peter]

I'd think it unlikely - the Mass is one work whereas the sonatas are different works and you'll note it's only a few bars of the first movements that are quoted.

[Enrique]

"Of the first movements" of the sonatas, yes. I understand. I thought that, with the facilities provided by the automatic processing of texts or scores somebody could have undertaken the work of doing such a thing.

Not all is lost, for I could do it myself, with a little hard work. Yet, on second thought, I think in the Missa Solemnis --take for instance the Credo: the Credo is not divided into clear cut sections ("numbers I called them before") as is the case in a work like Mozart's Requiem. If this is so, and I'll check it right now, then the job would be a bit dificult or lack sense. Thanks for your replay and regards, Peter.

[Enrique]

I was wrong. In the Sanctus, for instance, there is a long rest between the Sanctus proper and the Osanna, plus a change in time signature and tonality whereas the Benedictus begins with a new time signature and there is a two-beat rest except for flutes and the solo violin, which bridge the two sections. So, there is a discontinuity between the traditional sections.
I crazy idea to think it could be otherwise. So, an index of the kind proposed by me would be feasible!

P.S.: Believe me. I have heard it a thousand times. I do not understand how I had to write these posts only to discover the sections do not form a continuum. Must be because I never payed attention to the text.

[Roehre]

The Kinsky Verzeichnis generally gives incipits of all movements of any work, and where a solo entry happens somewhere later in that movement (either in a concerto, duo-sonata, a vocal piece, or the "numbers" of Leonore/Fidelio) these bars are given as well.

For op.123 the Kinsky Verzeichnis gives as incipits (pp.359-360):
-Kyrie (+ added the entry of the chorus)
-Gloria
-Credo
-Sanctus (+added the entry of the soloists)
-Praeludium (i.e.the instrumental brdge including solo-violin between Sanctus and Benedictus)
-Benedictus
-Agnus Dei.

This means that basically the 5 standard mass movements are indicated.
For opus 86 there are only 5 incipits given.

Scores, the Eulenburg study scores e.g., but the Neue Beethoven Ausgabe as well, tend only to mention the main incipits as index.

Btw: I have seen (Giulini on EMI e.g. but I don't know whether Brilliant has followed this) Missa soleminis recordings where the sub-divisions within the mass-movements were indexed by "own" tracks.

[Enrique]

The Kinsky Verzeichnis generally gives incipits of all movements of any work, and where a solo entry happens somewhere later in that movement (either in a concerto, duo-sonata, a vocal piece, or the "numbers" of Leonore/Fidelio) these bars are given as well.

For op.123 the Kinsky Verzeichnis gives as incipits (pp.359-360):
-Kyrie (+ added the entry of the chorus)
-Gloria
-Credo
-Sanctus (+added the entry of the soloists)
-Praeludium (i.e.the instrumental brdge including solo-violin between Sanctus and Benedictus)
-Benedictus
-Agnus Dei.

This means that basically the 5 standard mass movements are indicated.
For opus 86 there are only 5 incipits given.

Which would amount to the same, save for the Benedictus and its praeludium. For some reason, in the sleeves of discs the benedictus appears as not being a part of the Sanctus, a reason I ignore. Quite a pity it does not contain a finer division. If it did, by reading the incipits one would get an idea of where in the work the desired passage is and, with no need for a score, quickly go to the correct position in the disc.

Scores, the Eulenburg study scores e.g., but the Neue Beethoven Ausgabe as well, tend only to mention the main incipits as index.

I have an Eulenburg edition of the Mass in B minor (Edition Eulenburg N. 959) and how I would like to have incipits on it (doing it by hand would not justify the end, as I count 24 numbers on its index). But it has not. BTW, what is a study score?

Btw: I have seen (Giulini on EMI e.g. but I don't know whether Brilliant has followed this) Missa soleminis recordings where the sub-divisions within the mass-movements were indexed by "own" tracks.

So you could just enter the track number and immediately hear, say the resurrexit (in case op 123 has one). Very well done. One thing I never saw, and a thing that could be added to CD players with almost no additional cost, is a facility that would allow you to set marks "on the recording" for later replay. But there would have to be a means for the player to remember which disc it was where you set the marks on, and the Red Book never provided for CD identification (or you would have to give the player an ID number arbitrarily chosen by you, for it to remember the marks correspond to that ID).

However, it does provide for up to 99 index points within each track (only indexes 00 and 01 being visible to most CD players). Is the EMI recording an audio CD?

[Roehre]

Enrique, this recording is an EMI production from the 1970s, reissued combined with the Mass in C op.86 as 2CD set late 1980s, and has recently been re-issued as a Brilliant 2CD set.
In early days of the CD, there were quite a lot CD-companies using the index points. For me an excellent example is BIS-CD-500, offering the two surviving versions of the Sibelius violin concerto, the differences explained in the booklet and marked by index point on the CD. The re-issue of these recordings within the Complete Sibelius Edition lacks those index points unfortunately. Index points seem to be a thing of the past -these were hardly used from the beginning onwards anyway.

A study score is paperback sized, contrary to the full sized conductor's score.

[Sorrano]

The index points were helpful, I thought, in cases of anthologies of music, particularly solo instrument or small ensemble, such as trio or quartet.

[Enrique]

Enrique, this recording is an EMI production from the 1970s, reissued combined with the Mass in C op.86 as 2CD set late 1980s, and has recently been re-issued as a Brilliant 2CD set.
In early days of the CD, there were quite a lot CD-companies using the index points. For me an excellent example is BIS-CD-500, offering the two surviving versions of the Sibelius violin concerto, the differences explained in the booklet and marked by index point on the CD. The re-issue of these recordings within the Complete Sibelius Edition lacks those index points unfortunately. Index points seem to be a thing of the past -these were hardly used from the beginning onwards anyway.

Yours is very illustrative information, Roehre for, though I know (or used to) some details of the standard, I never knew much about "real life" CDs. So, the opp 123/86 is an audio CD. I thought it could be some other kind of medium (in the late 1980s CD(-ROM) was the only optical disk in the market).

A study score is paperback sized, contrary to the full sized conductor's score.

Is it synonimous with pocket score? E.g., I have in my hands a Boosey & Hawkes score, 13.5 by 18.6 centimeters in size, though sizes may have varied with time, with only the instruments playing at any given time having staffs for them in that page whereas in the conductor's score all the staffs appear, even if they are filled with rests, and the score says "Hawkes pocket scores".