Transposing instruments in present day scores.

[Enrique]

How are transposing instruments written nowadays on a score? Are they written in the real tonality or the way they are written in the player's part? Perphaps it depends on the publisher or whether it is a conductor's score or a pocket one. Personally, I do not see the point of the old practice, either for the conductor or for the occasional reader.

I am trying to read the beginning of the Sanctus in the Missa Solemnis and find clarinets in A, horns in E and horns and trumpets D. So you have to simultaneously remember three sets of rules which is a bit tedious when you are out of practice. Not to mention a 20th century work for large orchestra (at least all horns are usually written in F in this case).

[Chris]

They are written as they are in the parts. I think it would be too confusing to do it differently in the score and the parts. If you have experience in reading like this, I don't think it's a problem. After all, there are already a number of different clefs in use. Even a pianist usually reads two different clefs at the same time.

[Enrique]

Alright, I'll give you it may be confusing in that regard. As to the clefs, they represent no problem even for those who know only two, as familiarity with all of them is acquired after only reading a few bars/lines. But for, say a clarinet in A, you must remember to rise three accidentals, whereas for an instrument in E, four accidentals must be risen and for another instrument a given number of accidentals must be lowered.

Another thing is this: clarinets in A and in other pitches are usually played by an instrument in B flat. So, the instrumentist must have his/her part transposed by a different interval than in the score! Or do they transpose while playing? Same thing goes for the horns (F). Or perhaps the conductor's score has these instruments written for the instruments now used, while the pocket score has them not.

I think it was Prokofiev who was in favor of writing the transposing instruments in their real pitch, after all.

[Chris]

Another thing is this: clarinets in A and in other pitches are usually played by an instrument in B flat.

I don't think that's true, at least not in professional orchestras. The clarinet in A is still a standard orchestral instrument - too much music has been written for that instrument to make phasing it out practical.

So, the instrumentist must have his/her part transposed by a different interval than in the score! Or do they transpose while playing?

I suppose in the event they were playing on an instrument in a different key than for what it was originally written, they might use an edition that notates it for the different instrument or they might transpose while playing. I have noticed that players of transposing instruments are usually pretty good at transposing on the fly.

I think it was Prokofiev who was in favor of writing the transposing instruments in their real pitch, after all.

Well, I do think it would be more convenient in some ways to get rid of the transposing. But there are also advantages. For example, for instruments that exist in multiple "keys", the transposing allows them to be played with fingerings that consistently match the notated music.

Some publishers do offer editions in which the conductor's score is printed with everything in concert pitch, and this is more common in newly-written music, but usually the score is written the same as the parts.

[Enrique]

Clarinets in A: well, I chose a bad example. Consider Mozart's Maurerische Trauermusik. There you have corni de bassetto in F, which must be played by a clarinet (it's a woodwind), horns if E flat and horns in C. Do you think these parts are played by instruments in that keys? In Brahms 1st symphony, there are horns in B natural, a more modern example.

Well, I do think it would be more convenient in some ways to get rid of the transposing. But there are also advantages. For example, for instruments that exist in multiple "keys", the transposing allows them to be played with fingerings that consistently match the notated music.

Of course I am not speaking about the parts. I explicitly referred to the score.

Some publishers do offer editions in which the conductor's score is printed with everything in concert pitch, and this is more common in newly-written music, but usually the score is written the same as the parts.

Then things have not changed much since the time I began to read music. But this remark answers my first question. So, without fear of being wrong, I could say: at present the trend is towards using concert pitch, whereas in the time of Brahms, scores where printed with the transposing instruments like in the parts. Thank you for your kind post and regards, Chris.

[Sorrano]

In the concert band experience I've had it seems that players of commonly transposed instruments were able to transpose on the fly. I played a b-flat cornet, but never had to do any transposing; however, some of the woodwind players did, as I recall.

[Enrique]

In the concert band experience I've had it seems that players of commonly transposed instruments were able to transpose on the fly. I played a b-flat cornet, but never had to do any transposing; however, some of the woodwind players did, as I recall.

Very interesting. I think that's the most common cornet, I mean the one in b-flat. When I was in a certain military liceum I used to listen/watch the small band they had, from what I learned that the main instrument (or the analogous of the violin) is the clarinet. I presume, then, that more than one instrument of the clarinet family must be present in a concert band. Is it true?

[Sorrano]

Very interesting. I think that's the most common cornet, I mean the one in b-flat. When I was in a certain military liceum I used to listen/watch the small band they had, from what I learned that the main instrument (or the analogous of the violin) is the clarinet. I presume, then, that more than one instrument of the clarinet family must be present in a concert band. Is it true?

In a good concert band the entire clarinet family should be well represented; as they are the core instrument of the ensemble. The saxophone family is much more popular now, too, than what it was and has good representation.

I think that today orchestral scores and parts and getting away from requiring on the fly transposition, but it was a fairly common need. Quite some years ago I was learning to sight read simple orchestral scores for the practice of transposing on the fly and it was not too difficult at that level.

[Enrique]

In a good concert band the entire clarinet family should be well represented; as they are the core instrument of the ensemble. The saxophone family is much more popular now, too, than what it was and has good representation.

And what would be the difference between a concert band a military one? Does the concert one execute to a higher degree of excellence?

I think that today orchestral scores and parts and getting away from requiring on the fly transposition, but it was a fairly common need.

I'm getting a little confused. Beethoven writes the clarinets part for instruments in B flat. And in the orchestra I play in (that is with a modern instrument) we only have clarinets in B flat. I shall found my parts written a major second above and the transposition thing shall be transparent to me: I'll just play what is written on the part. Next we pass on to the second movement, and B has here written for clarinets in A. But then the parts shall be written a minor second above. And again I will be playing exactly what I read. If, up to now I am right, then why the necessity of transposing on the fly? There ought to be something I am missing here.

Quite some years ago I was learning to sight read simple orchestral scores for the practice of transposing on the fly and it was not too difficult at that level.

I imagine when you were still in the band.

[Sorrano]

Enrique, a concert band (and this was simply a high school designation) may have similar components of a military band. I think the term now used, or at least more acceptable not too long ago, is wind ensemble. A marching band will probably have heavier brass focus than a concert band or wind ensemble, plus some the of brass instruments will be somewhat different, as the use of sousaphone is preferred over the tuba.

Part of the problem with the scoring in the older orchestral parts, and such, is that instrumentalists often had to switch from (for example) an A clarinet to a B-flat, or to a C, etc., in the same work. It's been a long while since I've done much study in orchestration, past or present, so I am a little fuzzy with that.

The process of learning to sight read scores (and this was using a keyboard, such as piano) was mostly for improving technical and transpositional skills for the piano. I found the exercises very useful, though.

[Enrique]

A marching band will probably have heavier brass focus than a concert band or wind ensemble, ...

Aha... That is, in open air the brass section needs to be reinforced. How curious! I would have thought it was the other way around, as brasses seem more powerful than woodwinds. I realize, Sorrano, these matters must be extremely complex.

Part of the problem with the scoring in the older orchestral parts, and such, is that instrumentalists often had to switch from (for example) an A clarinet to a B-flat, or to a C, etc., in the same work. It's been a long while since I've done much study in orchestration, past or present, so I am a little fuzzy with that.

I'm in exactly the same position for I have not been sleeping well these days. May be tomorrow I'll see it all perfectly clear.

The process of learning to sight read scores (and this was using a keyboard, such as piano) was mostly for improving technical and transpositional skills for the piano. I found the exercises very useful, though.

I can imagine. Though reading music in general I think is useful for those who do it without an instrument too, including the human voice. Simply because next time you read you'll find yourself in a better condition to enjoy the music you are reading.