Scientific tosh!

[Peter]

Another example of how a scientist constructs an experiment to produce the solution he wants - if his conclusions were true surely Beethoven's Grosse Fugue would be more popular than Rossini's William tell for example? The last paragraph of the article is particularly ridiculous showing actually all he has achieved is the lowest common denominator, hardly a beacon of western culture.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ef=online-news

[Chris]

if his conclusions were true surely Beethoven's Grosse Fugue would be more popular than Rossini's William tell for example?

Why do you say that?

[Peter]

Why do you say that?

Probably a bad analogy but never mind, the point is that the experiment is ridiculous and the conclusions more so - " it demonstrates that preferences of audiences are a huge driving force in how cultures, music and arts evolve. It shows that inevitably, all composers play to the gallery, and I think it has underestimated the power that the gallery exerts on cultural evolution. In the cultural world, we forget that, and give all the credit to genius composers."

This may be true to an extent of popular music of today but can we say that of the greatest cultural achievements in music, Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler to name a few?

[Chris]

That does seem to be an unwarranted conclusion. The only conclusion possible here seems to be something that is obvious anyway - people like what they are used to. There is no part of the experiment that measures what a composer does with feedback.

[Sorrano]

Probably a bad analogy but never mind, the point is that the experiment is ridiculous and the conclusions more so - " it demonstrates that preferences of audiences are a huge driving force in how cultures, music and arts evolve. It shows that inevitably, all composers play to the gallery, and I think it has underestimated the power that the gallery exerts on cultural evolution. In the cultural world, we forget that, and give all the credit to genius composers."

This may be true to an extent of popular music of today but can we say that of the greatest cultural achievements in music, Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler to name a few?

Perhaps, to an extent, the opera evolution has been influenced by the popularity of styles. For example, we have German composers composing Italian operas in Italian simply because that was what was expected from the consumers. To say that "all composers play to the gallery" is a red flag to the "scientific" notion that the author applies to the article.

[Peter]

Perhaps, to an extent, the opera evolution has been influenced by the popularity of styles. For example, we have German composers composing Italian operas in Italian simply because that was what was expected from the consumers. To say that "all composers play to the gallery" is a red flag to the "scientific" notion that the author applies to the article.

Not sure what Wagner would say about that!

[Sorrano]

Not sure what Wagner would say about that!

But then Wagner wasn't very scientific, either.

[Enrique]

The music of Penderecki shows a long road of evolution from the time of Debussy. Has the "natural selection" of audiences in the world determined this evolution? Music from the very beginning of the 20th century (Concord sonata, Varesse's Ionization) and even before has undergone amazing and radical transformations. This was done against the general resistance of the public.

I do not think the great public has a taste of their own. No more than the consumer has one. This, is formed, molded by the corporations. And in music, changes are imposed by considerations intrinsic to art. After romanticism came postromanticism and then ... composers understood there was no more road ahead of them, and chose to go a different way. What had the typical concert goer to do with this veer?

I would like to see a Beethoven contemporary speak in front of him about the democratization of music, or the master asking for consensus when he wrote the "false" entry of the horns in the Eroica (Beethoven issuing a plebiscite).

[Peter]

The music of Penderecki shows a long road of evolution from the time of Debussy. Has the "natural selection" of audiences in the world determined this evolution? Music from the very beginning of the 20th century (Concord sonata, Varesse's Ionization) and even before has undergone amazing and radical transformations. This was done against the general resistance of the public.

I do not think the great public has a taste of their own. No more than the consumer has one. This, is formed, molded by the corporations. And in music, changes are imposed by considerations intrinsic to art. After romanticism came postromanticism and then ... composers understood there was no more road ahead of them, and chose to go a different way. What had the typical concert goer to do with this veer?

I would like to see a Beethoven contemporary speak in front of him about the democratization of music, or the master asking for consensus when he wrote the "false" entry of the horns in the Eroica (Beethoven issuing a plebiscite).

Yes good examples - the idea that public taste drives culture is nonsense. In many cases the artist is long dead before appreciation really comes! One wonders if this scientist is aware of Beethoven's last quartets, Wagner's operas or atonal music to give just a few examples. As mentioned in another thread I've been listening to Schubert's Schwangesang and Winterreise - two very personal and heartfelt works - no pandering to popular taste here!

In the case of popular culture there is some truth but I still think there is a large degree of manipulation by record companies and producers - pop music today is manufactured in much the same way as the scientist's experiment which proves nothing but ignorance.

[Enrique]

In the case of popular culture there is some truth but I still think there is a large degree of manipulation by record companies and producers - pop music today is manufactured in much the same way as the scientist's experiment which proves nothing but ignorance.

I'd rather say that influence is in this case zero, as pop music with the possible expection of jazz, has not shown any development since at least the waltz. If the music does not change, there cannot be any kind of agent making it change. As to music being manufactured, I'll quote the words of a distinguished German musicologist when he referred to George Gershwin, the composer that Leonard Benrstein called America's greatest composer in complete disregard of Ives, in a certain concert guide: "... a manufacturer of Hollywood sticky melodies".

Yes good examples - the idea that public taste drives culture is nonsense. In many cases the artist is long dead before appreciation really comes! One wonders if this scientist is aware of Beethoven's last quartets, Wagner's operas or atonal music to give just a few examples. As mentioned in another thread I've been listening to Schubert's Schwangesang and Winterreise - two very personal and heartfelt works - no pandering to popular taste here!

Thank you. Yours about Wagner is very good too, and confirms what I once read in a certain philosopher about the public waiting so much time until his operas became still life.

P.S.: my words about Gershwin are not my own and I am fond of many of his themes.