Mozart's Jupiter

[Sorrano]

If you take the opening to LvB 5th, simple 4 notes in 2/4 time, repeated twice, sets the tone for something volcanic.

Jupiter opening is common time, high note pause then ascending chord then goes alone nicely then left off at the clarinets..??? back to the ascending cords?? emotionally I have no idea where's it's going or coming from.

I'm looking at scores from
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/img...n_Do_mayor.pdf

One might also note that the opening notes to Beethoven's 1st Symphony (C Major, same key as the Jupiter) are very much different from the opening of Beethoven's 5th Symphony (C Minor). Yet I find the rest of the work just as exciting to me in its own way as the 5th Symphony.

[Michael]

One might also note that the opening notes to Beethoven's 1st Symphony (C Major, same key as the Jupiter) are very much different from the opening of Beethoven's 5th Symphony (C Minor). Yet I find the rest of the work just as exciting to me in its own way as the 5th Symphony.

Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 2 (which is really his first), has a similar opening to the Jupiter - a staccato theme followed almost immediately by a more melodic one. Yes, I know the differences outweigh the resemblances, and it's not a symphony and it's in B flat but both works have the classical "male and female" opening.

I like the Beethoven concerto and the First symphony immensely even though I came to them a good bit after the bigger middle and late works. I actually didn't like them for years but they crept up on me.

[painter_mindscapes]

ALL: Please discuss ideas and not each other. Passionate discussion is good, but don't make it personal. Also, I want this forum to be friendly to students and younger audiences, so please refrain from using vulgar language.

then why have you removed 'philip' post???????

i find it offensive and asinine in other forums he would be banned.

[Sorrano]

then why have you removed 'philip' post???????

i find it offensive and asinine in other forums he would be banned.

And your followup post was not offensive?????

[painter_mindscapes]

My assertion was: "Without the Jupiter, there would have been no Eroica...etc."

I probably should amend it to read: "Without Haydn and Mozart, there would have been no Beethoven". You know what I mean.

I disagree as I think LvB would still have been a creative artist, his music would have been different yes but that much creative energy and passion would have still been unleashed. Without either I could see LvB creating new forms of music.

[painter_mindscapes]

And your followup post was not offensive?????

D-mn right it was, I was defending myself.

Key words in your post "followup post"

[Roehre]

Don't remember exact page but I read it in one of these books

Barry Cooper, Beethoven
Edmund Morris, Beethoven
Nicholas Cook, Beethoven Symphony No 9

None of these does, I am afraid.

[painter_mindscapes]

None of these does, I am afraid.

See Michael's post #26, it's in LvB's sketchbook for the 5th

[Chris]

then why have you removed 'philip' post???????

i find it offensive and asinine in other forums he would be banned.

I might have edited it if I had caught it before you did, but since that damage has been done, there is little to be gained by doing it now, except to make this thread even more confusing.

And please, everyone, if you have any questions about moderation or the forum, send me a PM so that we do not disrupt the on-topic discussion.

[Roehre]

See Michael's post #26, it's in LvB's sketchbook for the 5th

No.
There is a 29 bar Mozartian fragment to be found among these sketches.
But Beethoven did emphatically not marked them as "Mozart", as it was meant for his own use.
Beethoven never mentioned the composers of useful passages he copied from others among his sketches.

Btw, I am not sure whether it is the Jupiter from which this fragment stems.
AFAIK it is the g-minor KV550. I am looking for a reference (not found yet, not mentioned as such in Johnson-Tyson-Winter Sketchbooks), and have asked Michael too for one.

[Michael]

I need to point out an error in a previous posting of mine above (it's too late to edit it). I stated that there were 29 bars of the Jupiter symphony in Beethoven's sketchbooks for his Fifth. It has been pointed out to me by a vastly more knowledgeable person than myself that those bars were from the G minor symphony - which is quite correct. I mixed up the 40th with the 41st.
Apologies.
However - and it may be just me - but I do see a resemblance between a theme from the slow movement of the Jupiter and the second theme in the finale of Beethoven's Fifth, allowing for changes of tempo and key.

[Michael]

I disagree as I think LvB would still have been a creative artist, his music would have been different yes but that much creative energy and passion would have still been unleashed. Without either I could see LvB creating new forms of music.

We are actually agreeing here. Beethoven would probably have emerged as a great creative artist - but would he be the one we know today?
Actually, this kind of speculation is pointless. If B hadn't gone deaf - would he be as great?

I am convinced that there was a greater composer than Beethoven. Unfortunately, he died at the age of two.

[Peter]

We are actually agreeing here. Beethoven would probably have emerged as a great creative artist - but would he be the one we know today?
Actually, this kind of speculation is pointless. If B hadn't gone deaf - would he be as great?

I am convinced that there was a greater composer than Beethoven. Unfortunately, he died at the age of two.

No, there's one even greater than him - Anon, who died in 29,765 BC aged 97, unfortunately, there being no means of writing or notation, all of his vast output has been lost to posterity.

[Michael]

No, there's one even greater than him - Anon, who died in 29,765 BC aged 97, unfortunately, there being no means of writing or notation, all of his vast output has been lost to posterity.

Sorry to be pedantic, Peter, but he died in 29,764 BC at 96 - or should that be 98 as we are counting backwards?
Either way, a sad loss to humanity.

Thomas Gray put it very well:

"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear:
Full many a flow'r is born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air.
Some village-Hampden, that with dauntless breast
The little tyrant of his fields withstood;
Some mute inglorious Milton here may rest."

[Peter]

Sorry to be pedantic, Peter, but he died in 29,764 BC at 96 - or should that be 98 as we are counting backwards?
Either way, a sad loss to humanity.

Thomas Gray put it very well:

"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear:
Full many a flow'r is born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air.
Some village-Hampden, that with dauntless breast
The little tyrant of his fields withstood;
Some mute inglorious Milton here may rest."

I think the confusion arises because I'm using the old Russian calendar - Anon's true name being Anonovich - just think how many poor imitators and false attributions he has had to suffer in the subsequent centuries!