Mozart's Jupiter

[painter_mindscapes]

I'm tired of reading all of the egghead's in ivory tower accolades and want to know what do real people think about this music. Especially the first few bars.

I find it lacking in power as the opening hook is weak.

thx

[Michael]

I'm tired of reading all of the egghead's in ivory tower accolades and want to know what do real people think about this music. Especially the first few bars.

I find it lacking in power as the opening hook is weak.

thx

If you find the opening weak, what about the pathetic excuse for a theme that Mozart uses in the final movement - a mere tag taken from an excercise book on counterpoint!

But what that man made of this unpromising material is one of the wonders of this world - and so is every bar of the Jupiter! He knew what he was doing.

(Added later) Sorry about the cryptic nature of the above which may not have been very helpful.

I can understand your being underwhelmed by this symphony but - please - give it another chance. I absolutely detested it when I first heard it many years ago - but it demands repeated listening. I think the problem lies with our 21st century ears which have become accustomed to exotic harmonies and luxurious orchestration. It's very hard to clean out those ears and listen to how this music must have sounded in the 1790s or thereabouts.

Before this symphony was composed, the emphasis was always on the first movement. Mozart's achievement here was to allow the last movement to become the climax of the whole symphony. This might account for the perception of the first movement as being less interesting than that of, say, the preceding symphony, the glorious G minor. But give it time!

Without the Jupiter, there would have been no Eroica, Fifth or Ninth.

[Preston]

If you find the opening weak, what about the pathetic excuse for a theme that Mozart uses in the final movement - a mere tag taken from an excercise book on counterpoint!

lol

i agree with Michael. PM, you may not enjoy his music, that is yours to decide. but there is not denying his unimaginable talent, musical-genius, etc. even if i did not like the jupiter i would not bash it.

this reminds me of something: on youtube i have read some of the worst and hateful comments about many types of music, that is generally considered quite good. my point is people act as if they could write the music better, it seems, than the musician?

such as:
"well i would have done this at this part"
"this music sucks" (even though it is considered brilliant by many)
etc.

and it is with all music, not just classical. to any people - if you don't like - fine - but stop the bashing and hate. though, i am guilty of it also, at least at times.

i am confused and must stop posting. i do not even know if what i have written makes any sense???

[painter_mindscapes]

you both missed the point of the thread.

i posted my opinion of why i think jupiter is weak especially the opening.

the thread is not to critique my opinion but to state your own of jupiter, 1st movement especially.

[Peter]

you both missed the point of the thread.

i posted my opinion of why i think jupiter is weak especially the opening.

the thread is not to critique my opinion but to state your own of jupiter, 1st movement especially.

Well I love the piece, but admittedly it isn't my favourite Mozart. Why do you pick on that opening? I can think of hundreds of pieces that start with just as banal a motive - it's what Mozart does with the material and I think it is certainly not weak, there are some very powerful moments such as after the wonderful bars silence at bar 80.

[painter_mindscapes]

Well I love the piece, but admittedly it isn't my favourite Mozart. Why do you pick on that opening? I can think of hundreds of pieces that start with just as banal a motive - it's what Mozart does with the material and I think it is certainly not weak, there are some very powerful moments such as after the wonderful bars silence at bar 80.

I picked it because I read many reviews that say this is the 'ultimate' Mozart symphony and was coined 'Jupiter'. I listen to it and don't 'get it' so maybe others do who can explain why without a lot of musicologist verbiage.

[Peter]

I picked it because I read many reviews that say this is the 'ultimate' Mozart symphony and was coined 'Jupiter'. I listen to it and don't 'get it' so maybe others do who can explain why without a lot of musicologist verbiage.

Well I can understand your argument with it being the 'ultimate' Mozart symphony, when in fact the last 3 symphonies are in their different ways a synthesis of various styles. The C major looks back to the spirit of the Baroque as does Haydn's no.48 'Maria Theresa' or no.82 'L'ours' and it may be this more conventional approach that bothers you - the outer movements are the finest, the last of course for its contrapuntal mastery and that incredible coda. The first movement has a thoroughly organic structure with the motives being combined to great effect - for example the dotted motive from the first subject is used again in the 2nd subject. The tension and drama is as I mentioned earlier heightened by that bar long rest followed by the music bursting in loudly in the minor key. Then what about that delightful tune that rounds off the first section and is cleverly exploited at the opening of the development? Irresistible!

My advice to anyone who says they don't get a piece of music is simply to stop trying! I didn't get Berlioz's Fantastique symphonie or the late Beethoven quartets for many years - I only came back to them when I felt the time was right.

[Chris]

as does Haydn's no.48 'Maria Theresa

Ah, that's one of my favorite Haydn works!

For what it's worth, I do like the Jupiter Symphony quite a bit, but I prefer No. 40. If somebody asked me for one Mozart symphony to listen to, I would say that one.

[Peter]

Ah, that's one of my favorite Haydn works!

For what it's worth, I do like the Jupiter Symphony quite a bit, but I prefer No. 40. If somebody asked me for one Mozart symphony to listen to, I would say that one.

Great as it is, the 40th is rather too hackneyed for me, a bit like the Beethoven 5th! I prefer the 39th, it's so full of Joie de vivre - I particularly like Mozart's Eb works; the piano concertos in that key and the overture to the Magic flute all seem to share this quality. Without checking I think the lovely clarinet trio is also in Eb?

[Quijote]

I'm tired of reading all of the egghead's in ivory tower accolades and want to know what do real people think about this music. Especially the first few bars.

I find it lacking in power as the opening hook is weak.

thx

I swore I would not come back to this forum (unless for the LvB teasers), but Painter Mindscapes' posting has made me do so.
I am possibly an egghead ivory tower resident, so I must forgo my opinion of planetary symphonies.
However, as a non egghead ivory tower resident (therefore a "real person" according to the blogger in question) in terms of the plastic and film/video arts, I would like to make disparaging comments about Mindscapes' recent posting involving the nude pole dancer (on the "What are you listening to now" thread) and the earlier posting of his/her film shot in Death Valley (whose exact title and rationale escapes me). Trouble is, I find him/her so boring and boorish that I can't be bothered to track down those precise postings in order to respond to them. All I can say at this juncture to Painter Mindscapes is to urge him/her not to give up the day job.
I thank Michael (our resident Beethoven freak, non egghead and park bench resident) for his intelligent critique of the Jupiter, as well as the comments by Peter and Chris (both part-time eggheads and real people). And not forgetting Preston (who is beyond rational definition, this being a good thing).
I hope this is not a posting that merits my banning.
Greetings to other forum members (past, lurking and present),
Philip

[PDG]

Without the Jupiter, there would have been no Eroica, Fifth or Ninth.

A surprising assertion from you, Michael! I don't think I agree at all...

[Sorrano]

I'm tired of reading all of the egghead's in ivory tower accolades and want to know what do real people think about this music. Especially the first few bars.

I find it lacking in power as the opening hook is weak.

thx

Personally, I find the opening rather exciting and powerful, both looking to the future as well as the past. Of all the Mozart symphonies it is my favorite opening.

[Preston]

Philip, in all honesty - good to hear from you.

[Roehre]

Without the Jupiter, there would have been no Eroica, Fifth or Ninth.

I am afraid I disagree.
The seminal Mozart symphony -re its influence on Beethoven's 2nd- is the Prague, no.38 KV504. Contrary to the general thought that the 1788-trilogy contains the best of symphonic Mozart, it is KV504 which is the real symphonic masterwork of Mozart's:
-the longest 1st mvt (the longest symphonic mvt before the Eroica 1st mvt even)
-the most extensive development sections
-the symphony which did cost Mozart by far the most trouble to conceive (the one symphony of which quite a lot of sketches do exist, including a couple of discarded ideas)

Without the Jupiter Beethoven's symphonies are conceivable, without the Prague they aren't.

[painter_mindscapes]

Edited to remove excessive vulgarity - Chris