What are you listening to now?

[Roehre]

Well, we can say that it is rubbish. The middle allegro? Is that the Pathetique sonata adagio, re-hashed by Cooper?

It's not that simple.

Obviously it's not what Beethoven grosso mode would have made out of it.

But the sketches themselves + the description of the mvt as given by i.a. Karl Holz to whom B played the movement + the way B usually developed his themes, continuity drafts and ultimately the scores as extrapolated by Cooper, do offer a non-dismissable artist's impression of what B had in mind.

[Peter]

It's not that simple.

Obviously it's not what Beethoven grosso mode would have made out of it.

But the sketches themselves + the description of the mvt as given by i.a. Karl Holz to whom B played the movement + the way B usually developed his themes, continuity drafts and ultimately the scores as extrapolated by Cooper, do offer a non-dismissable artist's impression of what B had in mind.

Unless he himself might have dismissed it as he did with other sketches such as the A minor quartet sketch for the 9th?

[Peter]

Vaughan-Williams symphony no.5.

[Michael]

Well, we can say that it is rubbish. The middle allegro? Is that the Pathetique sonata adagio, re-hashed by Cooper?

I think the sketches for the Tenth do contain a theme remarkably like the Pathetique slow movement, but obviously Beethoven didn't get very far with it.

[PDG]

It's not that simple.

Obviously it's not what Beethoven grosso mode would have made out of it.

But the sketches themselves + the description of the mvt as given by i.a. Karl Holz to whom B played the movement + the way B usually developed his themes, continuity drafts and ultimately the scores as extrapolated by Cooper, do offer a non-dismissable artist's impression of what B had in mind.

"Having in mind" and submission to publisher are two very different sets of circumstances!

[PDG]

I think the sketches for the Tenth do contain a theme remarkably like the Pathetique slow movement, but obviously Beethoven didn't get very far with it.

I cannot believe that Beethoven would have ended up using recycled material from 27 years earlier! He may have regarded the adagio as some sort of template for a later, grander idea, but Cooper just strings along this vague, wishy-washy notation, and fleshes out an entire symphonic movement from it. Preposterous, I say!

[Roehre]

Unless he himself might have dismissed it as he did with other sketches such as the A minor quartet sketch for the 9th?

Yes, that is undeniably a possibillity ofcourse.

But Holz' description of the movement played by Beethoven in 1826 is remarkably consistent with the sketches:
-the form slow-quick-slow
-the unusual key structure E-flat /c-minor / E-flat

Combined with B's words that he had it sketched in his drawer (normally he would exaggerate and telling publishers that the score is near completion, while the continuity draft or not even the process of sketching had been finished. Not here so), and his returning to "older material" (here the sonata opus 13, not unlike the 2nd symphony [very opening 1st mvt; trio 3rd mvt] in the 9th) makes it plausible that these sketches were not abandoned at the time of B's death.

[Roehre]

Today:

Byzantine chant (alternating Greek and Arab):
Cristos anesti.. (Christ is risen)
Antoumoul-ladhin.. (All ye who have been baptized in Christ)
Inaa-I-Malak… (The Angel called to Mary)

Anonymous Early French Polyphony (11C):
Missa paschalis

Gombert:
Missa Tempore Paschalis (1540s)

BachJS:
Cantata “Christ lag in Todesbanden” BWV 4 (1708)
Oster-Oratorium BWV 249 (1725)

Ruppe:
Muziek voor Paasch-feest MDCCXCVII (Music for Easter 1797)

Foerster:
Symphony no.4 in c op.54 “Easter” (1905)

Saxton:
Music to Celebrate the Resurrection of Christ (1988)

[Sorrano]

Listening to Bruckner's 3rd symphony. The opening notes, of the 2nd mov. are reminiscent of both Beethoven and Bach. They are very moving. Though, it goes to wholly to the major after about 1 minute and I do not like that, feels strange and uncomfortable. I don't like the major without some minor - it sounds insane, too happy, too good, etc. - does anyone else feel this way?

Which version of the symphony are you listening to, Preston? There are two adagios composed for this work.

[Peter]

Yes, that is undeniably a possibillity ofcourse.

But Holz' description of the movement played by Beethoven in 1826 is remarkably consistent with the sketches:
-the form slow-quick-slow
-the unusual key structure E-flat /c-minor / E-flat

Combined with B's words that he had it sketched in his drawer (normally he would exaggerate and telling publishers that the score is near completion, while the continuity draft or not even the process of sketching had been finished. Not here so), and his returning to "older material" (here the sonata opus 13, not unlike the 2nd symphony [very opening 1st mvt; trio 3rd mvt] in the 9th) makes it plausible that these sketches were not abandoned at the time of B's death.

Then there is also the possibility that he could have been unhappy with it and abandoned work as he did with the 6th piano concerto.

[Roehre]

Then there is also the possibility that he could have been unhappy with it and abandoned work as he did with the 6th piano concerto.

Which has been completed (the 1st mvt only that is) and recorded as well.

With the D-major piano concerto it is more likely that B didn't want to continue as (in 1815) he very painfully and depressingly realized that he himself wouldn't be able to play it (in public). Not dissatisfaction with the work itself, but a kind of composer's block which stopped the project.

In terms of abandoned works: the Rondo op.129, the Rondo WoO 6, the Romanza cantabile Hess 13 (and many a work in Hess' catalogue for that matter) all fall within this category. And I am quite surprised that no-one so far has orchestrated the sketch for the symphony in c-minor Hess 298, which is complete for the whole of the exposition and some 15 odd bars of the development

[Chris]

Which has been completed (the 1st mvt only that is) and recorded as well.

I was actually just thinking about looking for a recording of this. The only recording I could find is the one on Inedita. Are there others?

[Chris]

Ludwig August Lebrun:
Oboe Concerto No. 3 in C major
Oboe Concerto No. 5 in C major
Oboe Concerto No. 6 in F major

Beethoven:
Largo from Oboe Concerto in F major, Hess 12

Bart Schneemann/Radio Chamber Orchestra/Jan Willem de Vriend

I bought this disc for the Beethoven, which was interesting, but these Lebrun concertos are very nice. He was obviously a very talented oboist.

[Roehre]

I was actually just thinking about looking for a recording of this. The only recording I could find is the one on Inedita. Are there others?

Unfortunately there isn't another.
A pity, as the Inedita has been recorded in a kind of carton box or so and the performance is hardly more than just adequate, I'm afraid.

[Roehre]

Ludwig August Lebrun:
Oboe Concerto No. 3 in C major
Oboe Concerto No. 5 in C major
Oboe Concerto No. 6 in F major

Beethoven:
Largo from Oboe Concerto in F major, Hess 12

Bart Schneemann/Radio Chamber Orchestra/Jan Willem de Vriend

I bought this disc for the Beethoven, which was interesting, but these Lebrun concertos are very nice. He was obviously a very talented oboist.

Lebrun and Beethoven likely have met each other in Bonn, and B's concerto may have been written for him.
To be honest, obviously the Beethoven reconstruction -where could that original score be??????- is interesting, but the Lebrun concertos are very enjoyable too.
Btw, this is de Jos van der Zande reconstruction. There exist at least one other one, in the mean time.