The great artist-creators.

[Enrique]

Those giants of art and of literature like Beethoven have been benefactors of mankind. Science, though not its purpose, benefits men too. But the benefits coming from science, and technology, its by-product, are arguable at the very least. For instance the large numbers of human beings at present populating the world have been made possible (the numbers have) by science alone. Notice how I do not say the aim of science is arguable for, this, is truth and science itself, the pursuit of it.

It seems unlikely, instead, that a masterwork of music will have a negative impact in the forests health. In this sense, I say men like Bach or Beethoven are true benefactors of the human race. I could not help these thoughts, so many times enunciated, coming to my mind, after listening to the 6th symphony first movement and, especially, one of its passages which I regret not being able to write down here. The rythm, in 2/4 ("figuracion" is the spanish word) is: eighth, sixteenth, sixteenth, eighth, eighth. And the corresponding notes are: D, C, Bb, F, D. This repeats itself over four bars, but the same design extends over eight more bars, always in B flat, before it modulates to the unexpected tonality of D major, and still the same design. And it is the man who produced the Fifth Symphony who wrote this!

[Peter]

Those giants of art and of literature like Beethoven have been benefactors of mankind. Science, though not its purpose, benefits men too. But the benefits coming from science, and technology, its by-product, are arguable at the very least. For instance the large numbers of human beings at present populating the world have been made possible (the numbers have) by science alone. Notice how I do not say the aim of science is arguable for, this, is truth and science itself, the pursuit of it.

It seems unlikely, instead, that a masterwork of music will have a negative impact in the forests health. In this sense, I say men like Bach or Beethoven are true benefactors of the human race. I could not help these thoughts, so many times enunciated, coming to my mind, after listening to the 6th symphony first movement and, especially, one of its passages which I regret not being able to write down here. The rythm, in 2/4 ("figuracion" is the spanish word) is: eighth, sixteenth, sixteenth, eighth, eighth. And the corresponding notes are: D, C, Bb, F, D. This repeats itself over four bars, but the same design extends over eight more bars, always in B flat, before it modulates to the unexpected tonality of D major, and still the same design. And it is the man who produced the Fifth Symphony who wrote this!

I know the passage you mean - yes wonderful, especially combined with the ever increasing urgency of the triplet figuration in the bass. Yes I see your point about benefiting humanity - the problem is not enough people listen to it to get that benefit which is probably why we're in such a mess. It was Thomas Beecham who said that he would compel people to listen to 15 minutes of Mozart daily as that would improve the world!

[Chris]

Good music can be used for evil purposes as well - to rally people behind an evil cause.

[Preston]

Those giants of art and of literature like Beethoven have been benefactors of mankind. Science, though not its purpose, benefits men too. But the benefits coming from science, and technology, its by-product, are arguable at the very least. For instance the large numbers of human beings at present populating the world have been made possible (the numbers have) by science alone. Notice how I do not say the aim of science is arguable for, this, is truth and science itself, the pursuit of it.

It seems unlikely, instead, that a masterwork of music will have a negative impact in the forests health. In this sense, I say men like Bach or Beethoven are true benefactors of the human race. I could not help these thoughts, so many times enunciated, coming to my mind, after listening to the 6th symphony first movement and, especially, one of its passages which I regret not being able to write down here. The rythm, in 2/4 ("figuracion" is the spanish word) is: eighth, sixteenth, sixteenth, eighth, eighth. And the corresponding notes are: D, C, Bb, F, D. This repeats itself over four bars, but the same design extends over eight more bars, always in B flat, before it modulates to the unexpected tonality of D major, and still the same design. And it is the man who produced the Fifth Symphony who wrote this!

Believe me - on this forum you are by know means alone in your way of thinking.

It is interesting what you write about the music helping nature - I agree wholly. The reason being is because Pythagoras felt that sound was behind the creation of this universe, at least to my understanding, and that most all things revolve around sound - in some way.

So yes, I agree that people like Beethoven, music would have a very positive effect on the natural world.

The problem is, as Peter says, it is rare that people look into genius to such a degree, as we do. They care nothing for genius! How?! I have met so many who know nothing of any of the "great geniuses" of the past and do not care to know.

Another problem is, is that humanity as a whole (which I do believe exist - even though there is individuality) goes against the natural and pure forces of this world and therefore cause destruction upon it. I think we are the only animal that does this?

[Peter]

Good music can be used for evil purposes as well - to rally people behind an evil cause.

The fault doesn't lie with the music, the composer or the performers - Human nature has an infinite capacity to pervert what is good such as a brilliant mind that sets out to invent a weapon that can kill millions of people.

[Enrique]

I know the passage you mean - yes wonderful, especially combined with the ever increasing urgency of the triplet figuration in the bass.

Increasing urgency... How well you have put it into words. But I must add what gives the passage its magical touch are the long pedals, first in the strings, finally in the whole orchestra.

It was Thomas Beecham who said that he would compel people to listen to 15 minutes of Mozart daily as that would improve the world!

Had he not said it, someone else should have done it.

The problem is, as Peter says, it is rare that people look into genius to such a degree, as we do.

In turn, I agree with you in this other point: It is by listening to music that we are having a glimpse at genius, and we get a first row position better than the science of psycology put altogether.

One of the reasons Pythagoras put sound so high, could have been the great esteem Greeks felt for music, I think. If we are to believe Curt Sachs, it was their dearest art. And, it is true, there was certain music (modes) against which certain philosophers pronounced themselves.

[Chris]

The fault doesn't lie with the music, the composer or the performers - Human nature has an infinite capacity to pervert what is good such as a brilliant mind that sets out to invent a weapon that can kill millions of people.

Agreed, but I wanted to point out that art, as much as science, can be used for good or evil purposes. Additionally, the fault may lie with the composer, if he intentionally created something for an evil purpose.

[Michael]

I know the passage you mean - yes wonderful, especially combined with the ever increasing urgency of the triplet figuration in the bass. Yes I see your point about benefiting humanity - the problem is not enough people listen to it to get that benefit which is probably why we're in such a mess. It was Thomas Beecham who said that he would compel people to listen to 15 minutes of Mozart daily as that would improve the world!

If I am thinking of the same passage (and I presume it is the opening of the development section), I always imagine Beethoven making his way up a huge hill, reaching a summit and then climbing even higher.
Having walked the Beethovengang in Heilegenstadt and having had to stop to catch my breath at the Beethoven monument, I can appreciate it even more.

[Preston]

In turn, I agree with you in this other point: It is by listening to music that we are having a glimpse at genius, and we get a first row position better than the science of psycology put altogether.

One of the reasons Pythagoras put sound so high, could have been the great esteem Greeks felt for music, I think. If we are to believe Curt Sachs, it was their dearest art. And, it is true, there was certain music (modes) against which certain philosophers pronounced themselves.

Yes, I agree, with your first statement. The reason being is because music is based around feelings, while science and psychology are based around thought, per say.

I believe Pythagoras put sound 'so high' is because he knew that feeling is "a very large root of all things" - and that feeling comes from sound, etc.

[Enrique]

LEFT BLANK BY THE AUTHOR. REASON: I prefer to reserve it.

[Peter]

Agreed, but I wanted to point out that art, as much as science, can be used for good or evil purposes. Additionally, the fault may lie with the composer, if he intentionally created something for an evil purpose.

That is true and how should a piece such as the Marseillaise be regarded leading as it did to the Terror? Or what about Haydn's Emperor's hymn appropriated by the Nazis - surely it shows that a work of art itself does not possess a quality of good or evil - it is our interpretation of it that is such? Oscar Wilde said as much in his preface to Dorian Gray 'there is no such thing as an immoral book, books are either well written or badly written'.

[Peter]

If I am thinking of the same passage (and I presume it is the opening of the development section), I always imagine Beethoven making his way up a huge hill, reaching a summit and then climbing even higher.
Having walked the Beethovengang in Heilegenstadt and having had to stop to catch my breath at the Beethoven monument, I can appreciate it even more.

I did this in temperatures of nearly 40C and can sympathise!

[Michael]

I did this in temperatures of nearly 40C and can sympathise!

It was more like minus 40C when I was there. It was in March, and the only thing that kept me going was the cold.