often times i think Beethoven was gothic/dark/evil...

[Preston]

I hate to say this - but for me it is true. I feel as though, I am in the same predicament as Thayer - so disgusted by Beethoven's behavior and torment that it makes me think differently about Beethoven.

Many of the Gothic peoples of today, admire Beethoven, turn his music into heavy metal riffs. He wrote such dark and kind-of gothically evil music it seems. Yes, I know that many of his melodies have a lighter feel but I feel as though he, let's just was a very dark soul. He beat (physically and verbally) Karl - until he attempted to commit suicide. Poor Karl.

Though, then with all that he had been through - it makes a person wonder what would one be like. He seems so abusive. Though, perhaps he did have a more beautiful side that I cannot see clearly?

And like Charles Hazlewood his music does sound to me like "two dogs fighting" - I cannot connect to it. I connect more to Mozart.

I just don't know what to make of Beethoven? Except that he was dark, a lunatic (except for in his music), mean, perhaps filled with the dark powers, etc.???????

[Chris]

I wouldn't call it dark...passionate, yes. He was hot blooded and passionate and not shy about expressing himself. But I think darkness is an unfair characterization. He also possessed great optimism and love of beauty and nature and joy. It is a rare Beethoven work indeed that is tragic throughout - no matter how stormy the music may be in the beginning, it nearly always turns triumphant in the end. Surely the finale of the Ninth Symphony could not have been composed by someone who was dark and despairing.

[Preston]

Chris you raise a good point I think - that his music is positive, well a lot of it.

In short, I don't know if I will ever know if he somekind of evil genius or a genius who suffered from some really severe mental and physical problems? Beethoven was out of control, imo.

It saddens me to say this. All these years I thought he was good, he was something of a hero of mine, though now I feel not sure about him. I am sorry my fellow Beethovians.

[Chris]

Was he good? He was better than some, not as good as others. He was no saint, certainly, and if you are looking for a model of virtue, you would do better to look elsewhere. People do have a tendency to confuse greatness with goodness - that is, to confuse someone who accomplished great things with someone who is particularly moral or virtuous.

[Preston]

Was he good? He was better than some, not as good as others. He was no saint, certainly, and if you are looking for a model of virtue, you would do better to look elsewhere. People do have a tendency to confuse greatness with goodness - that is, to confuse someone who accomplished great things with someone who is particularly moral or virtuous.

I am not confused about goodness and greatness, etc. It is not about that, either. Good is highly subjective (so we must ask what is good) but, it is more about just being a decent human - which do I feel he 'really was' - no - based on my reasons above - do I think that maybe he attempted to be decent, and that he could not control himself and his eccentricities at the same time, yes highly possible. And probably the latter, though, I just wonder and perhaps I will never know - unless I connect and connect deeply with his music and what he is expressing - which may never happen?

I just need to do some more research and thinking?

Thanks for your replies Chris, .

[Peter]

I hate to say this - but for me it is true. I feel as though, I am in the same predicament as Thayer - so disgusted by Beethoven's behavior and torment that it makes me think differently about Beethoven.

Many of the Gothic peoples of today, admire Beethoven, turn his music into heavy metal riffs. He wrote such dark and kind-of gothically evil music it seems. Yes, I know that many of his melodies have a lighter feel but I feel as though he, let's just was a very dark soul. He beat (physically and verbally) Karl - until he attempted to commit suicide. Poor Karl.

Though, then with all that he had been through - it makes a person wonder what would one be like. He seems so abusive. Though, perhaps he did have a more beautiful side that I cannot see clearly?

And like Charles Hazlewood his music does sound to me like "two dogs fighting" - I cannot connect to it. I connect more to Mozart.

I just don't know what to make of Beethoven? Except that he was dark, a lunatic (except for in his music), mean, perhaps filled with the dark powers, etc.???????

You need to put some context to your reactions to Beethoven! I certainly do not condone beating a child but it was quite the norm then to discipline a child in that way - Beethoven would have been beaten himself no doubt by his own father. We cannot apply retrospectively our values of today.

It is simply nonsense to say Beethoven wrote 'evil, dark music' - his music is full of hope, light and joy - to say that of the man who wrote Fidelio shows you are completely misunderstanding him and his gift to the world if that is how you react to his music.

If you find more understanding with Mozart and Bruckner that is fine and I think you should explore those composers more. Enjoy what you relate to but don't keep trying to force yourself to like Beethoven - it isn't working and actually producing negative reactions in you, contrary to the positive message of his music.

I have been blunt and I hope not offensive in my response but to be frank this is a Beethoven forum for people who appreciate Beethoven's music and I'm sure are rather uncomfortable at having such a great person described in terms we normally reserve for people like Hitler such as 'lunatic' 'dark' and 'evil'.

[Preston]

Surely the finale of the Ninth Symphony could not have been composed by someone who was dark and despairing.

Chris, I just want to say it seems that is a damn good point, !