What are you listening to now?

[Chris]

In that respect certainly the scherzo could very easily be a beethovenian piece.

Perhaps, but I don't think the other movements sound much like Beethoven, especially the first. If anything, I think I would believe the A major symphony also included on this disc was a Beethoven work before I would believe the Jena symphony was.

[Roehre]

Today :

Copland:
Symphony no.1 (1928; is the Symphony for organ and orchestra from 1924 without an organ)

Mendelssohn:
Die erste Walpurgisnacht op.60 (1843)
Infelice! Ah ritorna, età felice op.94 (1842 version)
Trompetenouvertüre in C op.101 (1825)

Verdi:
Ouvertures –
Nabucco
Giovanna d’Arco
La Battaglia di Legnano
Luisa Miller
I Vespri siciliani
La Forza del Destino

Corrette:
Le Ballet des Ages (1733)

Vejvanovsky:
Balletta pro Tabula (1670s)

Beethoven:
Musik zu einem Ritterballet WoO 1 (1790)

Saygun:
Symphony no.3 opus 39 (1961)

[Preston]

I listened to this Naxos CD a couple of weeks ago.
The attribution of the "Jena" to Beethoven was (1n 1912) not only made following the find of his name (but with a question mark iirc !) but also and even predominantly on stylistic grounds.

In that respect certainly the scherzo could very easily be a beethovenian piece.

It is only that other copies of this work have emerged with the proper composer's name on top them, and that at the present state of research no sketches which might be related to this symphony in C have been identified, otherwise it would have been very difficult to disown the "Jena" as a Beethoven symphony.

Its qualities are very similar to the sketches of that other pre-first symphony in C, sketched around the time the "Jena" was supposed to have been composed.

Thank you for that knowledgeable information Roehre.

Judging the "Jena" now is something we do with the benefit of hindsight, I am afraid.

It does seem like that to me also, at least based on what I have read?

[Chris]

Beethoven - Complete Lieder - Schreier/Olbertz

[Roehre]

Beethoven - Complete Lieder - Schreier/Olbertz

My very first set, on 3 separately issued LPs on Telefunken (licensed from Eterna in East Berlin). Cherished records they are.

[Chris]

My very first set, on 3 separately issued LPs on Telefunken (licensed from Eterna in East Berlin). Cherished records they are.

Indeed. Some of these were used on the DG Complete Beethoven Edition Lieder volume too. I wonder why not all of them? Perhaps they were looking for a mix of voice types.

[Roehre]

Indeed. Some of these were used on the DG Complete Beethoven Edition Lieder volume too. I wonder why not all of them? Perhaps they were looking for a mix of voice types.

DGG had to get recordings from outside their own back catalogue to get the job of a "Complete" Beethoven done.

Good examples are the originally CBS-Masterworks-recordings for opp.117, 118, 121b and 122, all these not (or not in their entirety) recorded previously by DGG.
The same applied to a range of songs, as by far the most in the back catalogue had been recorded by D F-D, but he had made his own choice and was therefore far from complete.

With some of the song all the canons and other short choral works were licensed from Eterna too.

Only a couple of recordings were especially made for this Edition, of which the most important ones are those of the (nearly) complete Folk song arrangements. These were very sketchily represented in the DGG archives (i.e. 2 or 3 LPs filled for the 1970 Beethoven Edition), the Eterna versions were disapproved of for their pronunciation of English, and therefore nothing remained for DGG but to record them themselves.

IMO the choice of recordings has less to do with chosing a scala of voices, but more with simply practical reasons how to get your Complete Beethoven complete.

[Michael]

String Quartet, Opus 130 in B flat. (With the GF as final movement).

[Chris]

the Eterna versions were disapproved of for their pronunciation of English, and therefore nothing remained for DGG but to record them themselves.

Yes, the pronunciation on those Eterna recordings is rather amusing at times. And I do love those DGG folksong recordings! The only thing is, I think they may not include all the verses? I'd have to go back and check, but I think I remember that they do not.

IMO the choice of recordings has less to do with chosing a scala of voices, but more with simply practical reasons how to get your Complete Beethoven complete.

True, but I was thinking if they licensed some of the Schreier recordings, why not all of them for a more cohesive set? I thought they might just want a mix of voices, but I suppose it was a bit cheaper for them to just license what they needed.

Any anyway, I suppose Schreier's set isn't really "complete" itself, since it is missing a couple dozen songs (most of which should be sung by a woman, I suppose, so that's understandable). Though it does include Ich denke dein, WoO 74, which the DGG did not include in song form.

[Roehre]

Though it does include Ich denke dein, WoO 74, which the DGG did not include in song form.

One of the rather incomprehensible decisions (or is this a straightforward omission?) which work is and which isn't included.

The recordings of the Folksongs had a brilliant spin-off though.
As Barry Cooper prepared the Beethoven Compendium which he edited in 1989/'90, he came to the conclusion during the research of these arrangements that the material was very sketchy and no overall publication regarding these works existed, not even a correct and complete listing/survey in any of the catalogues (WoO, Hess or Biamonti).

He took part in the preparations of the DGG project.
Given the state of the documentation re the Folksong arrangements he was asked to do some research. An extensive research followed and this ran parallel with the preparations for the recordings.

However, between the end of the recording sessions and the issue of the CBE, and the final preparation for the printing of the (very interesting, but rather expensive OxfordUP) book, two other [versions of] Folksongs emerged. which therefore should have, but weren't included in the CBE (and afaik haven't been recorded commercially either).

And, indeed, not all verses have been recorded (some of the "proper" songs, iirc from op.48, aren't either btw), but some of them are already long enough without being recorded completely

[Roehre]

Today:

Mendelssohn:
Das Märchen von der schönen Melusine op.32
Meeresstille und glückliche Fahrt op.27

Saygun:
Symfonie nr.4 op.53 (1976)

[Michael]

[QUOTE=Roehre;55519]One of the rather incomprehensible decisions (or is this a straightforward omission?) which work is and which isn't included.
[QUOTE]



Where do you find out all this fascinating stuff, Roehre?

To me, the most incomprehensible omission in the DGG set was Opus 4 - Beethoven's re-composition (if there is such a word) of his wind octet. It goes far beyond a mere arrangement but DGG blithely ignored it.

There was a DGG website devoted to the Beethoven Edition and this question was repeatedly asked. The stock answer was that alternative arrangements of existing works had to be left out - which begs the question as to why they included Beethoven's piano trio versions of the Septet and the Second Symphony and yet left out the piano arrangements of the "Ritterballet" and "The Creatures of Prometheus."

I think the answer is that DGG wanted to rely as much as possible on their back catalogue, and made new recordings only when they had to, as in the case of the folksongs.

[Enrique]

Leonin:
Organa (Harmonia Mundi, HMC1148).

[Peter]

Mozart Sonata K.576 - two different recordings played by Eschenbach and Uchida.

[Roehre]

Where do you find out all this fascinating stuff, Roehre?

That is a combination of observation combined with discussion. It is rather unusual to see that DGG (or now Universal) has licensed from other companies. The more as Philips for their then groundbreaking Complete Mozart Edition fully relied on own back- catalogue-recordings with the gaps fillied in with brand new ones. It took project leader Eric Smith (Erich Schmidt-Isserstedt's son, btw) nearly a decade to get this realized (started research and planning 1983, last recordings Summer 1990 !).

That sparked discussion, which I indeed had (in 1998) with one of the project managers (whom unfortunately I cannot name here). I was told that in the negotiations around the overtake of Polygram (i.a. DGG, Philips and Decca) by Universal the brand DGG was uncertain to be continued (the same way as the brand Philips now has disappeared after Polygram being acquired by Universal), and therefore a centenary DGG edition could have been premature.
As DGG continued to exist over 1997/'98 (the Universal negotiations started in 1995 and were eventually concluded in 1999), the celebration had to be realised fast. And a Complete Beethoven was a relatively swift and cheap solution, but time was too short too record the "missing" works, the main reason for DGG to use licensed recordings.
Whether that is the whole truth and nothing but the truth I am doubtful: dropping the DGG brand? Why was Cooper "drawn in" for the Folksongs afaik in 1994 or '95 (which doesn't fit within the pictured chronology)?

To me, the most incomprehensible omission in the DGG set was Opus 4 - Beethoven's re-composition (if there is such a word) of his wind octet. It goes far beyond a mere arrangement but DGG blithely ignored it.

There was a DGG website devoted to the Beethoven Edition and this question was repeatedly asked. The stock answer was that alternative arrangements of existing works had to be left out - which begs the question as to why they included Beethoven's piano trio versions of the Septet and the Second Symphony and yet left out the piano arrangements of the "Ritterballet" and "The Creatures of Prometheus."

I think the answer is that DGG wanted to rely as much as possible on their back catalogue, and made new recordings only when they had to, as in the case of the folksongs.

I agree fully. Looking at what was likely specifically produced, they kept it to an absolute minimum: the Romance cantabile, possibly Die Weihe des Hauses plus the Leonore Prohaska incidental music (opp.114, 124, WoO 96 and 98), the Folksong settings, and that's by far the best part of what they did.

Mind you, even the Ruinen von Athen recording from 1969/'70 was merged with the missing parts of Die Weihe des Hauses, a recording made in 1996!

How impressive the Complete Beethoven may be, it shows some signs of haste and trying to realize something great on the cheap I'm afraid.