No Wind in later life for LvB

[PDG]

I wonder why Beethoven ceased writing for wind/wind and string ensembles as early as 1801, just after completing his septet, Op.20 and Serenade, Op.25. These are both very satisfying works, yet he seems to have lost interest, and suddenly, in following them. We have the wind sextets and Octet, and the lovely Oboe Trio, but all carry hopelessly misleading, late opus numbers.
We know that LvB had many musically-proficient friends. It' hard to believe they simply stopped asking him for new works; or if they did, that he completely ignored their requests. If he found working on the folksong arrangements satisfying - AND THIS IS NOT EVEN BEETHOVEN MUSIC! - then it's equally hard to believe he lacked the motivation.

Any thoughts?

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I wonder why Beethoven ceased writing for wind/wind and string ensembles as early as 1801, just after completing his septet, Op.20 and Serenade, Op.25. These are both very satisfying works, yet he seems to have lost interest, and suddenly, in following them. We have the wind sextets and Octet, and the lovely Oboe Trio, but all carry hopelessly misleading, late opus numbers.
We know that LvB had many musically-proficient friends. It' hard to believe they simply stopped asking him for new works; or if they did, that he completely ignored their requests. If he found working on the folksong arrangements satisfying - AND THIS IS NOT EVEN BEETHOVEN MUSIC! - then it's equally hard to believe he lacked the motivation.

Any thoughts?

I have two hypotheses: a) there was a smaller market for such music. b) Beethoven may have thought the wind-only format was musically limiting.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

It occurs to me that one of B's late works might qualify as wind music. I mean, of course, Opus 112, "Meeresstille und gluckliche Fahrt".

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I wonder why Beethoven ceased writing for wind/wind and string ensembles as early as 1801, just after completing his septet, Op.20 and Serenade, Op.25.

There are also the 3 equali of 1812 and the Variations with national airs Op.105 and 107. I agree though that these works are of a different type to the earlier wind chamber music. I think the reason is probably the very personal nature of chamber music - when Beethoven was writing the string quartets, he knew who he was writing for - Schuppanzigh, Linke etc.. in other words he had a fairly constant group of musicians at his disposal similar to Haydn having a ready made orchestra at Esterhazy.

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'Man know thyself'

[Eric]

I've been lurking on this list for a while now and, never one to mix metaphors, thought I might wade in on this subject. Someone suggested that Beethoven forsook writing for wind instruments because there was a waning market for wind compositions. If I may, this is simply not the case. Music for wind ensemble (i.e., Harmoniemusik) was pretty much at it's zenith. In fact, a number of Beethoven's own works were arranged for winds during his lifetime. These include: Symphonies no.7 & 8, Egmont Overture, Wellington's Victory, the Septet, Fidelio, the Pathetique Sonata, and the slow movement from the piano/wind Quintet. None of these arrangements would exist if there had been little or no market for them. There was a whole host of original works from this time too, for example, the glorious Parthien by Krommer. Mention was made of Beethoven's Septet and the lack of later wind/string works. The Septet had a profound effect on many composers. Schubert, for instance emulated it with his Octet. Berwald and Kreutzer each wrote works using the same instrumentation. Lachner, Spohr, Ries, Czerny all wrote for similar ensembles.

Someone else thought that Beethoven may not have known the wind players who may have been available at the time. And yet his close friend, Friedrich Starke, a horn player, arranged his Egmont overture. And there is the oft-told story of how the 4th horn part to the 9th Symphony was written for the hornist, E.C. Lewy.

My own suggestion as to why he neglected these worthy ensembles in later life is simply that he had other fish to fry. He turned to symphonic writing and to giving tortured birth to Fidelio. I've no doubt, though, that if someone approached him with a commission for another Septet we would have one now. For even Beethoven didn't compose in a vacuum.

I would also like to suggest that Beethoven had a special place in his heart for wind instruments right to the end. All nine symphonies contain textbook examples of cutting edge wind writing. One of the hardest contrabassoon parts of all time is that to the 9th Symphony.

Eric James

[Peter]

Originally posted by Eric:
My own suggestion as to why he neglected these worthy ensembles in later life is simply that he had other fish to fry. He turned to symphonic writing and to giving tortured birth to Fidelio. I've no doubt, though, that if someone approached him with a commission for another Septet we would have one now. For even Beethoven didn't compose in a vacuum.

I would also like to suggest that Beethoven had a special place in his heart for wind instruments right to the end. All nine symphonies contain textbook examples of cutting edge wind writing. One of the hardest contrabassoon parts of all time is that to the 9th Symphony.

Eric James

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head regarding commissions - however Schuppanzigh's absence from Vienna for 12 years during which time Beethoven wrote no string quartets is I think significant. Had there been a first rate wind ensemble akin to the Razumovsky quartet or even a particularly outstanding wind player as Mozart had found in Anton Stadler then Beethoven may well have provided us with more wind music.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Eric:

My own suggestion as to why he neglected these worthy ensembles in later life is simply that he had other fish to fry. He turned to symphonic writing and to giving tortured birth to Fidelio. I've no doubt, though, that if someone approached him with a commission for another Septet we would have one now. For even Beethoven didn't compose in a vacuum.

By this logic, given as you say the large number of wind players apparently available, why do you think Beethoven never received such a wind commission? I frequently read comments that B wrote parts such as the violin in op11 and the cello in op17 because there were fewer players for their respective wind parts. The wind parts in the above works were written for specific artists, but If there was a large and ready market in Vienna, would not Beethoven had taken full advantage of it outside of Bonn? I think there's more to it than just this.

Originally posted by Eric:

I would also like to suggest that Beethoven had a special place in his heart for wind instruments right to the end. All nine symphonies contain textbook examples of cutting edge wind writing. One of the hardest contrabassoon parts of all time is that to the 9th Symphony.

Eric James

Not so with the flute, at the very least. By his own words he did not like writing for the flute as the instrument was technically limited, which one could also say of the other wind instruments of this time, hence my earlier statement about B perhaps thinking this format was musically limiting. No instruments underwent greater development in the mid 1800's than the wind section, though I prefer the earlier models sonically. You rightly highlight the winds in the symphonies whereby B was happy to highlight them in the context of the orchestra, which also says something. I regard B's early wind compositions more as excercises for their use in the orchestra - thus I could conclude that wind ensemble compositions per se were not particularly to Beethoven's taste.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-11-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think you've probably hit the nail on the head regarding commissions - however Schuppanzigh's absence from Vienna for 12 years during which time Beethoven wrote no string quartets is I think significant. Had there been a first rate wind ensemble akin to the Razumovsky quartet or even a particularly outstanding wind player as Mozart had found in Anton Stadler then Beethoven may well have provided us with more wind music.

This is as I see it, although I'm still surprised that commissions were not forthcoming. I mean, not one in a quarter of a century??!!

Musicians would seem to have inspired the great composers as much as women! Brahms was considering retirement until hearing a clarinet virtuoso made him reconsider, leading him to write his great clarinet trio and quintet.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not so with the flute, at the very least. By his own words he did not like writing for the flute as the instrument was technically limited, which one could also say of the other wind instruments of this time, hence my earlier statement about B perhaps thinking this format was musically limiting. No instruments underwent greater development in the mid 1800's than the wind section, though I prefer the earlier models sonically.

Well, Beethoven died before the mid-1800s. In any event, surely its the piano which underwent the greatest changes of any instrument during 1800 - 1827; yet the bulk of LvB's music was written for it. And he did state, more than once, that he was not satisfied with the piano: "It is a most unsatisfactory instrument, and it will always be."

[PDG]

Originally posted by Michael:
It occurs to me that one of B's late works might qualify as wind music. I mean, of course, Opus 112, "Meeresstille und gluckliche Fahrt".

Michael

Very good, Michael. I assume, then, you cottoned on to my ambiguous topic title?

[Michael]

Originally posted by PDG:
Very good, Michael. I assume, then, you cottoned on to my ambiguous topic title?

Couldn't resist it, Peter! The work I mentioned is a cantata, not a piece for wind (unless you have a lavatorial sense of humour).
But seriously, chaps, there is a work for three horns, oboe and bassoon which should find its way into the rare Beethoven secion. It's the quintet, Hess 19, which has survived in an incomplete state. It was composed in 1796 or 1797 and the autograph of the first movement lacks its exposition but it has been reconstructed with reasonable accuracy from the recapitulation. (Being an early work, the recap section shouldn't have been too different from the exposition - allowing, of course, for key changes).
The second movement has survived intact but only nineteen bars remain of the last movement, a minuet.
It's an extremely attractive piece, and although DGG didn't see fit to include it in the Complete Edition, Naxos have once more come to the rescue on 8.553090. This disc also includes the Septet (in as fine a recording as you'll find anywhere) and the Sextet for two horns and String Quartet, the one with the strange opus number, 81b.

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Well, Beethoven died before the mid-1800s.

This was my point!

Originally posted by PDG:

In any event, surely its the piano which underwent the greatest changes of any instrument during 1800 - 1827; yet the bulk of LvB's music was written for it. And he did state, more than once, that he was not satisfied with the piano: "It is a most unsatisfactory instrument, and it will always be."

I think you should read my last posting again, I think you've missed my point.

Only once did he state his complete disatisfaction with the piano as far as I am aware, towards the end of his life when he had long stopped performing on the instrument or indeed stopped being able to hear the instrument. When he was at the peak of his playing powers he never used such language.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-11-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:

But seriously, chaps, there is a work for three horns, oboe and bassoon which should find its way into the rare Beethoven secion. It's the quintet, Hess 19, which has survived in an incomplete state. It was composed in 1796 or 1797 and the autograph of the first movement lacks its exposition but it has been reconstructed with reasonable accuracy from the recapitulation. (Being an early work, the recap section shouldn't have been too different from the exposition - allowing, of course, for key changes).
The second movement has survived intact but only nineteen bars remain of the last movement, a minuet.
It's an extremely attractive piece, and although DGG didn't see fit to include it in the Complete Edition, Naxos have once more come to the rescue on 8.553090. This disc also includes the Septet (in as fine a recording as you'll find anywhere) and the Sextet for two horns and String Quartet, the one with the strange opus number, 81b.

Michael

This piece is not all that rare, if you can buy it on Naxos!! This recording is very good for the Sextet and Quintet, less so the Septet. It is the Sextet from my experience that is the most rare.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:
This piece is not all that rare, if you can buy it on Naxos!!

Naxos have recorded a fair amount of "rare" Beethoven pieces - usually short ones, used as fillers. There are a couple of CD's of seldom-recorded piano works, and the "Ritterballet" and some pieces from "Leonora Prohaska" cropped up in one release.
A few years ago, Naxos announced that they would be bringing out a complete Beethoven edition, but DGG beat them to it, and I haven't heard anything about it since.
One of their latest releases is a disc called "Music for Glass Harmonica" which includes a short work by B. It's a melodrama (in the original sense of the word: spoken dialogue over an instrumental background, as in Act 2 of "Fidelio").
The sound of the glass harmonica is quite weird - almost like a piece of electronic music - in this work, at least.
There is a more substantial piece by Mozart included on the disc, which I haven't heard.

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
Naxos have recorded a fair amount of "rare" Beethoven pieces - usually short ones, used as fillers. There are a couple of CD's of seldom-recorded piano works, and the "Ritterballet" and some pieces from "Leonora Prohaska" cropped up in one release.
A few years ago, Naxos announced that they would be bringing out a complete Beethoven edition, but DGG beat them to it, and I haven't heard anything about it since.
One of their latest releases is a disc called "Music for Glass Harmonica" which includes a short work by B. It's a melodrama (in the original sense of the word: spoken dialogue over an instrumental background, as in Act 2 of "Fidelio").
The sound of the glass harmonica is quite weird - almost like a piece of electronic music - in this work, at least.
There is a more substantial piece by Mozart included on the disc, which I haven't heard.

Michael

I have the Ritterbalet recording on Naxos, we used it for the rare page. The B overtures that make up the main part of the disk are awful, but its worth buying for the ballet and the Triumphal March.

The Beethoven work with glass harmonica is only 1 minute long and is the only B work on that disk. Not enough to attract my wallet.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin