more thoughts on the mad genius...

[Preston]

i am sitting here thinking of how much i love Beethoven. he was a musician, greater than any - and deaf. what he did to my mind is supernatural - writing music completely deaf. he couldn't even do math, yet his music is greater than any, imo. he was a profound genius - filled with spirituality. yes, i think writing music stone deaf is supernatural. there was even a rumors going around about how he could write music deaf - they, thought he could hear music, and only that!!! how wrong they were! i consider him to be a "mad" (who's not, to point.) genius - who became so eccentric in his later life he would have seemed madder than fire.

anyway, i worship the sacred Beethoven - as i imagine many do here.

MAY THE SUPERNATURAL GENIUS OF BEETHOVEN BLESS US ALL.

also, the point is that anyone can have knowledge but to understand that knowledge in a deeper sense - is beyond the imaginable. So, feelings are the key to ALL - and Beethoven had them, felt them, etc. - understood them.

LONG LIVE THE GREAT GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and love to all true Beethovians - and to the members of this forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Peter]

Beethoven was NOT mad - he was eccentric yes and this was exacerbated by his deafness. Madness implies a delusional loss of touch with reality which Beethoven did not suffer from. It also suggests chaos and disorder and whilst his lodgings might have resembled a junk store, his music is governed by form and order.

In any case the term 'mad' is inappropriate these days because it is lacking in sympathy for those we now refer to as being mentally ill. Two composers come to mind here are Robert Schumann and Hugo Wolf - both were institutionalised because of their condition. Interestingly in the 19th century it was often the consequence of venereal disease (as in Schumann's case) for which there really wasn't a proper cure.

As to composing whilst deaf, it really isn't the supernatural feat you imagine - any properly trained musician with a modicum of talent can hear a score in their head. The real effect on Beethoven was that it isolated him from his contemporaries and this probably contributed to his originality.

[painter_mindscapes]

most genius are not "mad", they are so far ahead that people who can't comprehend them that they need a word to make their world 'comfortable'. it's easier to call someone else "mad" then to say "I'm lacking".

[Preston]

Beethoven was NOT mad - he was eccentric yes and this was exacerbated by his deafness. Madness implies a delusional loss of touch with reality which Beethoven did not suffer from. It also suggests chaos and disorder and whilst his lodgings might have resembled a junk store, his music is governed by form and order.

In any case the term 'mad' is inappropriate these days because it is lacking in sympathy for those we now refer to as being mentally ill. Two composers come to mind here are Robert Schumann and Hugo Wolf - both were institutionalised because of their condition. Interestingly in the 19th century it was often the consequence of venereal disease (as in Schumann's case) for which there really wasn't a proper cure.

As to composing whilst deaf, it really isn't the supernatural feat you imagine - any properly trained musician with a modicum of talent can hear a score in their head. The real effect on Beethoven was that it isolated him from his contemporaries and this probably contributed to his originality.

Yes, perhaps mad is the wrong word - but it comes in many different varieties, ways, etc. Mad - can be beautiful, etc. Though, yes I feel Beethoven - at least when I imagine - was touched in the head to a point - which is not a bad thing Peter, you act as though it is an atrocity, lol. He became so eccentric it was very hard for him to keep himself even remotely under good control. When I say mad, I do not mean stark-raving mad completely lost from reality, with little understanding of anything, etc. I mean quite the opposite.

What you consider mad and what I consider mad are two completely different perspectives, .

Though, while not supernatural, I agree, I do believe that to be able to write as complex of music as any ever written while being stone-deaf, is somewhat a supernatural quality - nothing wrong with me thinking that. And yes, it is a great sadness that Beethoven lost his hearing and could not hear his music, nor that of his contemporaries, etc. Though, yes, I would say supernatural in a general sense - I mean think about it - he wrote as complex, with as much feeling, etc. as any music and he was completely deaf. People can write music deaf of that I am sure, but to wrote what he wrote, yes I believe it is supernatural (in a general sense), and I feel this is something often over looked.

So yes, I consider Beethoven touched with madness and brilliance, and to have a supernatural quality.

[Roehre]

In Beethoven's time "madness" was used in a much wider context than later on, let alone nowadays. He was considered eccentric, but sublime and as such harmless.

That's an assessment we read in the reports on him sent to chancellor Metternich and state security authorities by spies observing B and his friends in the pubs they frequented (and for which they warned each other by writing down in a Conversation booklet that they were suspicious of other persons near their table).

More importantly, we do not find any allusion to either madness or alcoholism (read: frequent drunkenness) in the files of the civil process regarding the custodianship of his nephew.
This means, that even within the much wider interpretation of "madness" in those days, Beethoven was not considered to be "mad" (or a drunkard, for that matter).
The "Queen of the Night"'s lawyers without any doubt would have used that as an argument to retain the custodianship for Karl's mother - and mud was slung by both parties. But they didn't.

[Preston]

yall act as though mad as some atrocity? i have always felt that way about Beethoven, and i think it is beautiful, and the further i have looked into his life and the more i have read confirms my thought even more - though that is my understanding of madness - which can often be pretty sane at the same time.

and Roehre, you forget that actually many people did according to an account, think he was a lunatic... and rightfully so? can you blame them - he was walking around shouting, waving his arms throughout the streets, papers filled his pockets, dirty, unkempt, spitting on mirrors thinking they were windows, wrapping his Credo (?) around the butter, attempting to cook big dinners and coming out with raw meat, of course his natural behavior, etc. and this is confirmed in a letter that someone wrote, stating - "many say he is a lunatic". the same person was also completely moved by Beethoven, who, told him about how he was the most miserable man alive, etc.

my point is insanity is not a bad thing - depending on the kind, way, type, etc.

we are all insane unless enlightenment is attained, imo.

[Peter]

yall act as though mad as some atrocity? i have always felt that way about Beethoven, and i think it is beautiful, and the further i have looked into his life and the more i have read confirms my thought even more - though that is my understanding of madness - which can often be pretty sane at the same time.

and Roehre, you forget that actually many people did according to an account, think he was a lunatic... and rightfully so? can you blame them - he was walking around shouting, waving his arms throughout the streets, papers filled his pockets, dirty, unkempt, spitting on mirrors thinking they were windows, wrapping his Credo (?) around the butter, attempting to cook big dinners and coming out with raw meat, of course his natural behavior, etc. and this is confirmed in a letter that someone wrote, stating - "many say he is a lunatic". the same person was also completely moved by Beethoven, who, told him about how he was the most miserable man alive, etc.

my point is insanity is not a bad thing - depending on the kind, way, type, etc.

we are all insane unless enlightenment is attained, imo.

No one has suggested it is an 'atrocity' and in fact in my post I referred to the term 'mad' itself as being unsympathetic. Madness or insanity is of course a matter of degree and interpretation or rather misinterpretation and yes you can argue that no one is exactly sane all of the time.

Beethoven's behaviour was eccentric but not insane, by which I mean he wasn't delusional, suffering from hallucinations, a danger to himself or others - this is what most people think of as 'mad'. On a musical level he was probably one of the sanest people of his generation! By that I mean his musical mind was ordered, rational and developed to an incredible degree of perfection.

[Preston]

On a musical level he was probably one of the sanest people of his generation! By that I mean his musical mind was ordered, rational and developed to an incredible degree of perfection.

Amen, so to say, to that!

[Peter]

Amen, so to say, to that!

You have to realise also that many of those stories about Beethoven are anecdotal, often embellished and not corroborated. For example, Schindler is a notoriously unreliable source who often distorted the facts or completely invented them to further the 19th century's Romantic notion of the troubled genius.

[Preston]

I feel for Schindler. He is railed against so much and it is hard to imagine him being so much of liar, thief, etc. - so I feel as though he treated unfairly. My point is, he was there during years of Beethoven's life - he saw Beethoven often in situations, environments, times, etc. that many did not see. I know many did see Beethoven, but Schindler wrote an entire biography about him. Yes, there are lies, most likely, and what not... but he was observant it seems, and well - I just think it is unfair to rule him out as a great person for anecdotes about Beethoven.

Just some thoughts:
Then, I think of Thayer reading Schindler's biography and being appauled. So therefore, a trained librarian as Thayer was, could not imagine this great genius (Beethoven) being as filthy as Schindler had written. So therefore Thayer sets out on an next to impossible journey and comes through with phenomenal accounts, information, etc...

... so I think while Thayer did amazing things, so did Schindler. And, yes, I think that for all Thayer did and all he was - which is amazing - he is overrated. Did he know Beethoven? Did he see him in action? Living? Being? Etc. No. And, to my mind, once Thayer (who does seem rather pompous in his writings and yes, even pictures - odd I know, but the man looked rather pompous) realized the true Beethoven, he quit writing the book - because the Beethoven he once thought of as a librarian at Harvard, changed to a point of goodness he could not understand, and therefore he, Thayer, felt it was filth - and therefore, was so disturbed by Beethoven "stealing" from the London Symphony he quit writing - he (Thayer) could take no more of Beethoven.

I consider Beethoven to be a great, good, etc. person - but what is great and good - what is success? Good is homelessness and thievery before wealth to my mind, good is poor before rich because the rich use the poor to get to the top (they are slave drivers), good is mass-murder before politics, etc. etc. etc. So you see Beethoven was the type of good, that imo, many, call heathens, filth, waste, pagan, etc.

In the end, Beethoven is a hard person to understand, how he is good. He is one of those people. He reminds me of the "dirt-poor rednecks" at a mobile home park I work at - by so many they are considered filth, waste, etc. - but they are anything but.

[Peter]

I feel for Schindler. He is railed against so much and it is hard to imagine him being so much of liar, thief, etc. - so I feel as though he treated unfairly. My point is, he was there during years of Beethoven's life - he saw Beethoven often in situations, environments, times, etc. that many did not see. I know many did see Beethoven, but Schindler wrote an entire biography about him. Yes, there are lies, most likely, and what not... but he was observant it seems, and well - I just think it is unfair to rule him out as a great person for anecdotes about Beethoven.

[/B]

Although Schindler and Beethoven first met in 1814, the period of their close relationship dates 1822-24 and then the last 3 months of Beethoven's life - in all around 20 months. Schindler went out of his way to further damage the relationship Beethoven had not only with his family (brother, nephew and sister-in law) by blackening them as much as he could but also with his friends such as Holz who he was especially jealous of.