a few thoughts on Beethoven...

[painter_mindscapes]

Mozart is unfairly stuck with the "light and fluffy" label, in my opinion. Yes, much of his music had very memorable tunes, and much of it was very charming. But he was capable of depth and tension as well.

Name works by Mozart like Grosse Fuge or even something with decent counterpoint. Or an introduction like LvB's 5th, 4 simple notes with geothermal energy, massive compression.

[Chris]

Name works by Mozart like Grosse Fuge or even something with decent counterpoint. Or an introduction like LvB's 5th, 4 simple notes with geothermal energy, massive compression.

Mozart has some very nice counterpoint. The fugal finale of the Jupiter symphony of course, and in other places throughout the movement (based on a subject of just four notes!). There is also the wonderful Fugue in C minor for two pianos, K. 426 - hardly "fluffy".

[Preston]

Name works by Mozart like Grosse Fuge or even something with decent counterpoint. Or an introduction like LvB's 5th, 4 simple notes with geothermal energy, massive compression.

First and foremost, welcome to the forum, .

Decent counterpoint - I highly imagine, though may be wrong, that Mozart was quite capable of "decent counterpoint" - what do you consider to be bad counterpoint and what do you consider to be good counterpoint, etc. and please explain why, if you don't mind?

A key thing to understand is that Beethoven and Mozart were two different composers and people with two different styles. Could Beethoven do what Mozart did - no - and could Mozart do what Beethoven did - no. Also, even if one composer, musician, band, etc. is "better" than another then that does not mean one (a listener) has to enjoy the "better's" music more and what not. For instance, John Williams is pretty technically brilliant from what I understand - however I do not like his music - and much prefer a lesser technically brilliant composer Jeremy Soule.

Beethoven wrote great masterpieces - agreed. The greatest, most likely, by all means. But you are talking about musicians who are considered genius - which means that is how great they were - so even while the Grosse Fugue may be a greater work, Mozart still wrote many great pieces and more so later in life - to my mind.

Also, what about the Jupiter Symphony and his Requiem? What are your thoughts on those?

Also, wasn't Mozart one of Beethoven's most treasured composers along with Handel and Bach?

All the best.

[Sorrano]

Name works by Mozart like Grosse Fuge or even something with decent counterpoint. Or an introduction like LvB's 5th, 4 simple notes with geothermal energy, massive compression.

What about the fugal writing in the sacred music, the masses? Personally, I was not too impressed with the symphonic output. But then when I moved to the concerti I found myself moved. The sacred writing of which I have heard I quite like and am looking forward to that part of the Brilliant set that I have. Then there is the chamber music to look forward to, which I suspect rivals pretty much anything during his time period.

[Preston]

also, to my mind, yes Beethoven came through in the end with works that were deeper and had more feeling than Mozart - and probably greatly... but Mozart was quite capable of writing deep and profound music - just not as deep as Beethoven, imo. it is just that Beethoven was on a different level of feeling, imo, though Mozart's much of Mozart's music is deeply profound - more so in his later years, imo.

[Preston]

Personally, I was not too impressed with the symphonic output.

When Mozart's symphonies are compared with his concerti (more specifically the piano concertos) I find the symphonies to be as good if not better, so you confuse me?

I mean, you have the symphonies (which are most glorious in themselves) like 40, 41, 29, and 25, etc.? but then there are so many others than the more common ones that are more profound. I am listening to Mozart's symphony 31 right now and find the opening to glorious and the string work. I love at the beginning when primarily the basses play off of the main theme and pick up I guess the second theme. Love it! I may be wrong about the themes???

[Preston]

also, just because Mozart wrote a lot in the major does not make it any less profound, to my mind.? i feel like people say he is fluffy or light because he used a lot of major.

though, i do want to clarify something. once, Philip posted about a writer thoughts of the different scales... the writer said the major was gay and warlike. i think it depends on how it is used - such as, a lot of new age uses major, though because of the instruments it does not sound that gay and happy.

anyway, my point is - is that Mozart confuses me and is a mystery to me - so much of his music (given the performance - well every performance?) does sound to my ears very happy - to an extreme. so i agree with the composer/philosopher on that, though i do not see it being warlike? though, yes a large output of Mozart's music sounds very happy to my ears, which makes me wonder about the interpretation of the orchestra's and Mozart, .

so yes, painter mindscapes, i definitely know where you are coming from. it confuses the heck out of me too. i think that Mozart went through great changes in his later years and eventually came through with one of the greatest pieces of music EVER written - The Requiem.

now to my ears, the minor longs and is filled with goodness at the same time. sometimes just playing something like C or, even more particularly E-Minor, and just playing the minor for what it is, and what I an play it for, I enjoy it very much. seems odd to me but it is true, it seems?

[bleedwell]

I guess it is easier to completely understand Beethoven, if you TOTALLY identify with him, as I do. as a young child I loved his music, it gave me comfort. the only thing that DID seem to understand me, inside. .....lol....I am now diagnosed as "bipolar".....but, still, find complete and total comfort in his music.
be blessed.......
bleedwell

[Preston]

that is quite a statement, though, i am not going to debate with you about completely identifying with him. (though, i do believe many here relate and connect to him.) if you feel you do then that is good enough for me. i have suffered, too, more than i can imagine - i call it soul suffering - though what i call soul suffering does not revolve around emotion - it actually revolves around my soul being in pAiN - like a knife in the leg... not that bad though, at least all the time - but i think i would rather wake up being beaten and brutally murdered every single morning (or be burned to death) - (i do not lie) - for the past... well all of my life - and then being able to feel peace for the rest of the day - INSTEAD of suffering from "soul suffering" all day.

anyway welcome to the boards, very much so. hope you will keep on posting and please feel free to send me a pm.