a few thoughts on Beethoven...

[Preston]

often when thinking about Beethoven, i find it to be unpleasant, tormented, sad, painful, etc. his strength is so much and so wild that it scares me, to a point, if not greatly. i think in a deeper sense, i both love and hate Beethoven. i love the story, the idea, etc. while i hate to think of the pain, torment, madness, etc.

i often find such comfort in Mozart - it seems he was just a comfortable and peaceful person - although eccentric, to my understanding, in his later years, and quite eccentric, to my understanding - which is not great.

it is just that to my mind Beethoven's eccentricities were more like some hate-filled madness, a lot of the time - while Mozart's eccentricities were more pleasant.

it is just that regarding a comfort zone (theirs and mine) i find much more comfort in Mozart - Beethoven is too hardcore and intense. it is hard for me too find any form of peace and comfort in Beethoven's music - so that bothers me, greatly in a sense.

[Preston]

i guess in truth, i do not feel his music as i should or want. though, i do not feel classical as i should either. i like the modern use of the orchestra - Hans Zimmer, Howard Shore, even Guns and Roses November rain, etc. i can feel it better, so much better. classical - i do not understand - and while i do not hate classical (quite the opposite) i have come to hate most of the feelings that come from it.

so there-in may lie an answer to the problem.

i love a lot of music, but only a very small hand of classical music moves me. it is has been a rather strange experience - that in the end, i just cannot enjoy classical music - reason being - i cannot feel it.

[Sorrano]

Sometimes to really appreciate the beauty that there is in music (as well as life) you have to endure the tensions and dissonances. Would there be any joy if there were no sorrow?

[Peter]

often when thinking about Beethoven, i find it to be unpleasant, tormented, sad, painful, etc. his strength is so much and so wild that it scares me, to a point, if not greatly. i think in a deeper sense, i both love and hate Beethoven. i love the story, the idea, etc. while i hate to think of the pain, torment, madness, etc.

i often find such comfort in Mozart - it seems he was just a comfortable and peaceful person - although eccentric, to my understanding, in his later years, and quite eccentric, to my understanding - which is not great.

it is just that to my mind Beethoven's eccentricities were more like some hate-filled madness, a lot of the time - while Mozart's eccentricities were more pleasant.

it is just that regarding a comfort zone (theirs and mine) i find much more comfort in Mozart - Beethoven is too hardcore and intense. it is hard for me too find any form of peace and comfort in Beethoven's music - so that bothers me, greatly in a sense.

That's rather a huge generalisation Preston - how can you not find peace in the slow movement of the 5th piano concerto, or come to that most of his slow movements? Or how about the Benedictus from the Missa Solemnis? Where is this 'hate-filled madness' you refer to in the Pastoral symphony or the 4th symphony? Where is it in the gloriously lyrical 4th piano concerto? How about the wonderful hymn to humanity and freedom that closes Fidelio? I could go on with many many examples where I'm afraid you are quite wrong in your reaction to Beethoven. Mahler said the symphony should be like the world in that it should contain everything - I think Beethoven's music does just that - yes there is pain and anger but also great serenity and joy - as a true artist he reflects all these emotions not just the negative that you are focusing on.

[Chris]

And in fact, it's the joy that usually wins out in the end, even in his stormier compositions!

[Michael]

And in fact, it's the joy that usually wins out in the end, even in his stormier compositions!

The only large composition I can think of that ends in utter despair is the "Coriolan" overture - and in that work, Beethoven had to follow the story-line.

[Preston]

I agree. I am not knocking Beethoven - though, I see how it could easily seem like that. And, if I understood, then yes I imagine his music is glorious - by all means.

It is just that I was watching Amadeus and the scene where Constanze tells him she thinks he is going mad, etc. I love that scene. And Mozart, even though sick at the time, was still such a pleasant person.

I'm just saying while I have the deepest respects for Beethoven, still, I find more comfort in Mozart's self, if you will.

[Peter]

I'm just saying while I have the deepest respects for Beethoven, still, I find more comfort in Mozart's self, if you will.

That's fine and you're not alone in feeling like that - many great musicians felt the same - Tchaikovsky for example who respected and admired Beethoven, but didn't love his music as he did Mozart's.

[Preston]

That's fine and you're not alone in feeling like that - many great musicians felt the same - Tchaikovsky for example who respected and admired Beethoven, but didn't love his music as he did Mozart's.

Thank you for your understanding Peter. In truth, I feel terribly sorry and hurt when I think of Beethoven's torment and sadness, etc. Also, it took me a lot of - something, I'm not sure what? - to post on the forum that after all these years I do not understand Beethoven's music - and that hurts me deeply, very. If there was any composer's music I could understand as they did it would be Beethoven.

[painter_mindscapes]

I've listened to most composers and music and many years ago I liked Mozart, past 10 years as I've gotten older, I find Mozart "light and fluffy" with very little substance, no depth. No extreme of emotions, no power.

Since I'm an artist now, my professor Vincent van Gogh. I am pulled towards Beethoven and his works and can relate to being creative and alone in the darkness. You have to have that inner light switched on to guide on as there is no one out there in front of you, you're on your own. The path isn't easy but out of that torment and pain comes a deep spiritual awakening. While his exterior life might seem hard, I modestly say, inside he explored worlds of beauty. The ability of Beethoven to create this is a gift of a limited few. He looked deep into the soul of humanity and found new ways to express what he felt, that defines genius. LvB to me is beyond a composer, he is one of the great artists, his canvas was music sheets and instruments and he achieves what all true artists strive to attain, have the participant feel what you did creating the piece. Great art stands the test of time, 200+ years and no sign of stopping.

One thing is curious to me. I've attended Beethoven concerts in a few places and most seem to have a 'new composition' by a sponsored composer, most of which are laden with special effects, like "raindrops in a Glasgow garden". I find these false and phony and detest them. I'm not a musician or composer but when I hear LvB especially the 9th, I feel the need, the drive to answer LvB musically not to contradict or reinterpret but to continue where he stopped. I hear the music but not the skills to write it down. Do any modern composers have a clue about how to express some humanity? What it means, being human?

[Michael]

I've listened to most composers and music and many years ago I liked Mozart, past 10 years as I've gotten older, I find Mozart "light and fluffy" with very little substance, no depth. No extreme of emotions, no power.

Welcome to the forum, PM! I find over the years that Mozart has grown in my estimation. The trouble is, he is rather over-exposed, what with the bicentenary in 1991 and another in 2006. However, I think more than half of his huge output could be easily dumped without any great loss to the music public.

[Sorrano]

Often, I have found Mozart to be "light and fluffy" to my tastes, then after picking up the Brilliant set of Mozart's complete works I've had quite the revelation listening, especially, to the concerti. Soon I will be listening to the divertimenti and I suspect that I will enjoy those a lot. The same is true for the Beethoven Brilliant set. I've had quite the revelation listening to the various songs as recorded in that set. That's given me a very new view of a composer I thought I knew a lot about.

[painter_mindscapes]

Mozart built his works out of sticks, magic and fairy dust. Only Don Giovanni seems to have something to say.

His longest symphony is Jupiter? and LvB's 9th swallows it whole.

Beethoven forged his works out of steel on the anvil, pounded and tested, until it was right. Beethoven will pummel your soul to great depths until you're about to drown then give you a few moments of respite then pound you again. To me, he says "Do you feel that? Catch your breath, here it comes again."

[Chris]

Mozart is unfairly stuck with the "light and fluffy" label, in my opinion. Yes, much of his music had very memorable tunes, and much of it was very charming. But he was capable of depth and tension as well.

[Preston]

Mozart is unfairly stuck with the "light and fluffy" label, in my opinion. Yes, much of his music had very memorable tunes, and much of it was very charming. But he was capable of depth and tension as well.

Agreed Chris.