Grosse Fugue

[susanwen]

Tonight I listened to the Grosse Fugue, Op. 133 played by the Orion String Quartet. I can get lost in the feeling of the music, but when I actually listen to it, I feel, well, lost. Can someone explain WHAT to listen for in this, what they like about it?

[Chris]

That's a hard question to answer. I suppose the same could be asked of any fugue. What do you listen for? You can listen for the subject(s) and try to identify them in all their variants. Or you can just sit back and enjoy it. Personally, I find the subject of the Grosse Fugue very compelling. It's harsh and powerful, especially when taken at a suitably quick tempo (which I find is often NOT the case).

Have your tried listening with a score in front of you? That might help you "figure it out". In fact, I might do a little of that myself this week to refresh myself - I'm going to a concert by the National Philharmonic next Saturday, where this piece will be played, along with Haydn's C major cello concerto and Mozart's Jupiter symphony!

[Megan]

Is Beethoven's Große Fuge strictly fugal writing?

[Preston]

imo...

Regarding the Grosse Fugue - for me - I do not get it, in the slightest. Though, it is good to keep this in mind - I have heard that it is as complex as music can be in the technical sense (though, good to keep in mind that is based on the knowledge of theorists, musicologists, etc. so it may be entirely correct, that is it being as technically complex as music can be, or it may not? I have no idea?) Though, my point is that if it is as technically complex as music can be then that is not something the average, common, brilliant, etc. ear could understand - that is more like divine genius or something, imo.

So in short, the Grosse Fugue is, imo, on a whole, and I mean a whole other level, so much so - wholly, .

[Peter]

Is Beethoven's Große Fuge strictly fugal writing?

No - the best way I can put it is a structure in several sections that uses a theme in various guises that are given fugal treatment. The sketchbooks demonstrate that Beethoven stumbled on this subject whilst composing the A minor quartet and he uses it again in the C# minor quartet - I say stumbled because the sketches reveal just how much he laboured over this to arrive at what we now know as the grosse fugue.

[Rutradelusasa]

One suggestion I have is to listen to the whole op.130 (minus the last movement) and then the fugue, as some themes come from the previous movements. It may not be enough to 'crack the nut' on this (imo) wonderful music, but it may help.

[Preston]

One suggestion I have is to listen to the whole op.130 (minus the last movement) and then the fugue, as some themes come from the previous movements. It may not be enough to 'crack the nut' on this (imo) wonderful music, but it may help.

I am not trying to sound rude, but you talk as though you understand this fugue? Why do you feel it is wonderful? Do you mean technically wonderfully, or in the sense of the purpose of music - to express emotion or feeling, etc.? Do you think you understand the feelings of the fugue as Beethoven did?

I think we all know that it is technically wonderful, so I assume you refer to what you feel when you listen to it. If I am right, do you believe that the first few notes are beautiful or terrifying?

[Preston]

Tonight I listened to the Grosse Fugue, Op. 133 played by the Orion String Quartet. I can get lost in the feeling of the music, but when I actually listen to it, I feel, well, lost. Can someone explain WHAT to listen for in this, what they like about it?

Imo, it is beyond - pretty much - any human-beings understanding - so you are not alone. So, don't listen to it, unless you are just curious, , imo.

It reminds when people say they know an omnipotent being exist - they are confused - much like they are with the grosse fugue.

There may be people who understand this fugue, even that are living today. And if there is someone who fully understands it - by all means - please tell me the exact feeling of each note to the best you can.

--------------------------

As a side note, I am convinced that, sadly, the orchestras have pretty much know clue what they are doing, other than from a technically talented standpoint. I don't think they know how to play most classical music - because their feelings are not attuned enough to even begin to imagine it.

A few thoughts:
- the feelings (which are ever so precise) have been lost over 100's and even 1000's of years.

- the great musicians are musically brilliant far beyond any level of feeling most can imagine, and therefore there brilliance cannot be understood.

[Zevy]

As Robert Winter wrote, "Stravinsky liked to call it "die sehr grosse Fuge.".

[Preston]

As Robert Winter wrote, "Stravinsky liked to call it "die sehr grosse Fuge.".

Sorry for the ingorance, , though what does that mean?

[Sorrano]

I think we all know that it is technically wonderful, so I assume you refer to what you feel when you listen to it. If I am right, do you believe that the first few notes are beautiful or terrifying?

Every time I hear those first notes I feel a tremor of excitement, a thrill that passes through my entire being. Knowing what lay ahead and what had come before helps to understand better the context of those notes, as well as the entire work.

[Preston]

Every time I hear those first notes I feel a tremor of excitement, a thrill that passes through my entire being. Knowing what lay ahead and what had come before helps to understand better the context of those notes, as well as the entire work.

Would you describe it as pleasant or unpleasant? Peaceful or not? Dark and peaceful? Light and peaceful? Dark and painful? Light and painful? Etc.

I've read that it has been described as both (pleasant and unpleasant) by different great composers? Though, I may be wrong. Schumann at one point, I think?, described it as sublime beauty - perhaps, he was right?

It sounds twisted and dark to me, hard to enjoy, so, I guess unpleasant? Though, I can see great beauty in great power, and - darkness. So maybe one day it will sound beautiful to me.

Maybe it cannot be described? But, my point is that if it is as complex as music can be - than the true sound of the Grosse Fugue is beyond 99.999etc. of humanity. Because - we would have to understand all music, imo, to a degree so high that not only 12 tone was completely understood - and/but - any music that could come from it, that is 12 tone - all music - or - most all feelings that can be felt by humanity. So, that is why I said it almost divine. I just think that if it is that complex than regarding that piece it cannot be understood unless you understand it on Beethoven's level?

So, you may see how I find it confusing? I feel it - though I know I do not feel it correctly.

[Preston]

As Robert Winter wrote, "Stravinsky liked to call it "die sehr grosse Fuge.".

looked it up:

the very large fugue

lol! i am finding that pretty funny - though, i am not sure why, something about it? i do not like the sarcasm behind it, but i see Stravinky's dry ass saying that and can't stop... an idea has come - stay tuned, if you wish.

[Preston]

[Peter]

looked it up:



lol! i am finding that pretty funny - though, i am not sure why, something about it? i do not like the sarcasm behind it, but i see Stravinky's dry ass saying that and can't stop... an idea has come - stay tuned, if you wish.

Stravinsky admired the Grosse fugue more than any other Beethoven work - he said it was a work that would always be 'modern'.