Kids and Music

[joel fienen]

Why can't kids in school listen to Beethoven? There are some schools out there that dis beethoven because he was abusive in his life. Many historians do not think so. I think that if kids could listen to him and tell their teachers what thy think about him many people would change their minds.

I think we should go to our schools and the education departments and tell them how we feel. Both as parents and none parents. I have no kids myself but I know of families that would agree with me.

[oboe_15]

Joel,

I totally agree with you! And I don't think that it should matter even if (notice the IF) Beethoven was abusive, that should not alter the teachers choice, in School, we learn about much more horrible things ie:

* Adolf Hitler
* Sadam Musane
* Timothy Mcvae

A persons life should really have no altercation on the music, however there is execptions, I fell in love with Beethovens music only AFTER I learnt about his life and what he went through. But It would be wrong to leave out Beethoven from the cylabus just because there is a ficticuos rumor!

At our College (secondary School) we learnt about Beethoven in great depth, and we were never told that he was violent, and nor did the School choose to not have him in the cylabus because of that reason!

It almost makes me angry that some Schools would choose to do that!

Beethoven Rocks!

oboe_15

[MCS]

I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but here in Ontario classical music is part of the curriculum. Starting in about Grade 6, the kids learn about the history of western music, including the great classical composers. How much music they actually get to hear seems to depend on the teacher, however. One of my daughters watched "Beethoven Lives Upstairs" AND listened to the complete 1st movement of the 5th Symphony at school. (I would have chosen the first 2 movements of the 7th myself.) Another daughter got what must have been the audio version of 'Classical Music for Dummies', where you hear 20 seconds of 2 dozen classical pieces. (A rather useless exercise.) I think the belief of many teachers is that kids this age (12 and up) simply don't have the patience to listen to a complete work of classical music without tuning out. Unfortunately, they are probably right. Kids used to listening to pop songs 2.5 -3 min. long likely don't have the intellectual stamina to pay attention to music that is not only much longer, but much more complex. The solution I think is to start them at an earlier age. (My sister, who is a teacher, often plays classical music for her Grade 2 class, and they enjoy it... Although they found Beethoven's 5th 'scary'.)
BTW, in what way was Beethoven abusive? I know he occasionally threw eggs at his servant and one time dumped an entire dinner on a waiter's head, but I wouldn't really consider that abusive...

Mary

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MCS:
I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but here in Ontario classical music is part of the curriculum. Starting in about Grade 6, the kids learn about the history of western music, including the great classical composers. How much music they actually get to hear seems to depend on the teacher, however.

In the Uk the music situation is pretty dire in the schools and not helped by the elitist attitude of our tv channels - not only has there been a substantial decrease in the number of classical concerts broadcast, but it seems to me that the 20th century repertoire dominates these, with little Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven.

Kids used to listening to pop songs 2.5 -3 min. long likely don't have the intellectual stamina to pay attention to music that is not only much longer, but much more complex. The solution I think is to start them at an earlier age. (My sister, who is a teacher, often plays classical music for her Grade 2 class, and they enjoy it... Although they found Beethoven's 5th 'scary'.)

I think you're right - the earlier the better before any of societies ignorant prejudices take a hold!


BTW, in what way was Beethoven abusive? I know he occasionally threw eggs at his servant and one time dumped an entire dinner on a waiter's head, but I wouldn't really consider that abusive...

He did beat his nephew Karl as punishment - however disciplining a child with corporal punishment was considered perfectly normal and necessary. I don't think it appropiate to apply the standards of today to an earlier era - we may rightly disapprove, but it was only one of many injustices that were typical of the time. Beethoven would have been beaten as a child himself and would have been expected to discipline his own nephew in the same way - he would have seen it as his duty and this was the view of society. It would do better for the pseudo-intellectuals and largely feminist left wing politically correct brigade who are paralysing our teachers' ability to teach, to concentrate on the humanitarian ideals that Beethoven espoused both in his music and his personal philosophy - yes he had faults (like the rest of us)and a temper that was easily roused as a result of the many personal frustrations and physical complaints he was prone to, but at heart he was a fundamentally good and moral man who had a basic underlying love for humanity.




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'Man know thyself'

[Bob the Composer]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:

Originally posted by MCS:
I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but here in Ontario classical music is part of the curriculum. Starting in about Grade 6, the kids learn about the history of western music, including the great classical composers. How much music they actually get to hear seems to depend on the teacher, however.

In the Uk the music situation is pretty dire in the schools and not helped by the elitist attitude of our tv channels - not only has there been a substantial decrease in the number of classical concerts broadcast, but it seems to me that the 20th century repertoire dominates these, with little Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven.

I don't see much of a problem with that, my reasoning being that if a person can enjoy or comprehend a contemporary work, they will almost certainly be able to comprehend Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn on their own. And since they are readily available in stores, whereas contemporary composers are not, it makes more sense to perform contmporary music (not all of which is "bad" or "not music"). In Beethoven's time, more music by him, Haydn and Mozart were being performed that Baroque music, and I'm sure some people complained, but both you and I agree that Beethoven is the Best Composer to ever have existed. Regarding the main topic, I would start their education while they are in the womb.

Bob the Composer

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I am not a number, I am a free man!

[This message has been edited by Bob the Composer (edited 07-28-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
I don't see much of a problem with that, my reasoning being that if a person can enjoy or comprehend a contemporary work, they will almost certainly be able to comprehend Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn on their own. And since they are readily available in stores, whereas contemporary composers are not, it makes more sense to perform contmporary music (not all of which is "bad" or "not music"). In Beethoven's time, more music by him, Haydn and Mozart were being performed that Baroque music, and I'm sure some people complained, but both you and I agree that Beethoven is the Best Composer to ever have existed. Regarding the main topic, I would start their education while they are in the womb.

Bob the Composer

I see a big problem with it - contemporary Classical music is an elite within an elite. How can we expect to appeal to young people with the latest Harrison-Birtwhistle offering? or with 15 mins silence from John Cage? How are they going to find that more appealing than Madonna? I'm not having a go at contemporary music per se, only the lack of mainstream Classical concerts on tv.
Nor do I agree with the argument that if you appreciate contemporary classical music, Beethoven will be a doddle - we've witnessed on this forum how appreciating Beethoven doesn't mean you're more or less likely to appreciate any other composer or type of music, so why should listening to Schoenberg etc.. turn people on to Beethoven (apart from the obvious need to hear something melodic!)?
Television is probably the single most important medium for young people, and Classical music in general hardly gets a look in. Since we agree that Beethoven was the greatest composer, why is it logical to keep his music and virtually everything else pre 1950 off the screen?


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-28-2001).]

[MCS]

Originally posted by Peter:
... Television is probably the single most important medium for young people, and Classical music in general hardly gets a look in....

That certainly is true over here. Several months ago I had the rare, good fortune to see an all-Beethoven concert on TV, but that was only because the hockey playoffs finished early and the CBC had nothing else to broadcast that night.

I'm not sure that more concerts on TV would make a difference to the tastes of teenagers, though. There is so much choice on TV these days, as well as movie videos, that it would be pretty easy to avoid a concert if you were so inclined. Perhaps it would help to make music videos for classical music? I think the key, though, is to get them, as you (Peter) put it, before they are influenced by society's prejudices so that they are more open-minded when they do encounter classical music on the radio or television.
(I wonder if Rod would consider developing 'corrective services' for adolescents?)

Mary

[joel fienen]

Beethoven was a good man I would say. Ithink kids should feel comfortiable about listening to music. As a gen xer myself. I would say that pop music they can have. Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Mozart, and Copland ahould be used in schools to teach kids that there are different styles of music out there than you Britany Spears or N'Sync. That kind of music makes me sick. They have no business calling themselves artist. Dave Matthews band they have a certain beat to it. Look I am not trying to start an argument here I was just tryin g to find out what you guys thought about this topic.

I am only 27 years old and I am thinking about starting a family and it scares me to think what is out there. Did you know they cut my orcherstra program at my high school when I was a somphomore? Did you know that some school the hell with music and that they need to learn sports? Did you know that the number one issue here in the usa is how much money our public education can make? I am sorry if I offended anyone here in the usa I am very sorry. The arts are getting cut out because people think that if you listen to classical music that you are going to end up like stuck up person. I have news for them all that pop music has a bad influence on kids. I am sure that not all pop music is like that. As on of chatters say Beethoven rocks.

People can say many stupid things in this world and they better not touch Beethoven because he is one of all time heros and when I die I want his 9th symphony sung in the hymn verson.

[Peter]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
I am only 27 years old and I am thinking about starting a family and it scares me to think what is out there. Did you know they cut my orcherstra program at my high school when I was a somphomore? Did you know that some school the hell with music and that they need to learn sports? Did you know that the number one issue here in the usa is how much money our public education can make? I am sorry if I offended anyone here in the usa I am very sorry

This is a trend that is all too prevalent as well in the UK - I sympathise with your views Joel, but it seems there is little we can do. Mary is probably right when she says Classical music on tv would make little difference as there are so many channels to choose from, with most of the programmes junk. In this world Gross Materialism and egotism rules and it seems to be getting worse to me, yet few complain. Fortunately there is Classical music and Beethoven which serves as a spiritual antidote for me and I'm sure millions of others.

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'Man know thyself'

[MCS]

Originally posted by Peter:
....Fortunately there is Classical music and Beethoven which serves as a spiritual antidote for me and I'm sure millions of others.

Amen.

[Rod]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
Beethoven was a good man I would say. Ithink kids should feel comfortiable about listening to music. As a gen xer myself. I would say that pop music they can have. Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Mozart, and Copland ahould be used in schools to teach kids that there are different styles of music out there than you Britany Spears or N'Sync. That kind of music makes me sick. They have no business calling themselves artist. Dave Matthews band they have a certain beat to it. Look I am not trying to start an argument here I was just tryin g to find out what you guys thought about this topic.

Here's my opinion on the topic, there are many singers in the world of classical music that sound considerably worse to my ears than the likes of Spears. Also there are a good deal of 'classical' compositions that in my opinion deserve little or no more respect than you currently allocate to Ms (no sex before marriage) Spears. Just 'cos the music's got a few fiddles in it and it is written by a dead guy doesn't mean by default that it's good music. People who are naturally and seriously interested in music will naturally gravitate to and sample the like of Beethoven sooner or later. Those who are not seriously interested in music will probably never like classical music anyway.

From my experience you don't force stuff down kids throats, the outcome is usually counter productive. Most kids get a sample already in basic music classes, but classical music has never, and will never, be mainstream fodder to usurp the likes of Ms Spears.

My own 10yr old daughter does not like Beethoven at all, and just about tollerates Handel. I believe perhaps her early exposure to this serious music and it's connection to a figure of authority (ie ME!) has already clouded her judgement, at least at this stage. This is not kids stuff, it's adult stuff - you don't give kids samples of Budweiser in kindergarten! And they don't expose kids to Spears in schools here in the UK at least, the kids are influenced by other media, and their own taste.

Originally posted by joel fienen:

I am only 27 years old and I am thinking about starting a family and it scares me to think what is out there. Did you know they cut my orcherstra program at my high school when I was a somphomore?.

Want some advise on this point? For Christ's sake don't do it. The whole business is scary, and you will remain scared until the end of your days. Music of any kind will not provide a remedy to your fear. Not that I'm a pessimistic kind of guy or anything...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-29-2001).]

[MCS]

Well......I'll agree that it is counter-productive to 'shove it down their throats', but I think that exposing kids early to classical music can only help to keep their concept of what constitutes music sufficiently broad so that they'll be able to appreciate classical music either as children or later as adults. Yes, some classical music isn't appropriate for kids. (That's the same with most forms of art.) But that doesn't mean we should let them listen to nothing but pop until their grown and then expect that those who are 'naturally inclined' will seek it out and enjoy it. There are plenty of works by LvB which are accessible to young people - the 6th and 7th symphonies, for instance, Moonlight and the Emperor...I could go on. And there are other composers, Rossini or Tchaikovsky even, which most would find tolerable or perhaps even enjoyable! The idea I think is not to completely educate them in all the 'important' composers before they're 10 years old, but to instill in them the idea that beautiful music is possible outside of the rock/pop world and that music played by an orchestra is not necessarily boring (which is how my eldest labels most classical music).

Originally posted by Rod:
Want some advise on this point? For Christ's sake don't do it. The whole business is scary, and you will remain scared until the end of your days. ....

Now, now....It's not so bad as all that...I've got three girls and have managed to keep my sanity more or less intact. (Of course, there are those who would debate that....)

Mary

[Michael]

My son, who is 22, has a huge collection of American Punk Rock CD's - and, until recently, a haircut to match. Two years ago he astounded me by asking if he could borrow some of my Beethoven CD's. I could hardly believe my ears so I told him to help himself, and I tiptoed quietly away. Some time later, he asked me for a good book on B, so I decided to give him the John Suchet trilogy. He devoured all three books in a few weeks, and I wondered how long this was going to last.
Two years later, he is still into punk (so am I) but also very much into Beethoven, quartets, piano sonatas, the lot! He is currently spending his third summer working in the states and he never travels without a set of the symphonies.
I never pushed classical music on any of my children but they couldn't avoid hearing it about the house, so he must have been soaking it up subconsciously all those years.
A few weeks ago, he was playing some B when he got an irate shout from his room-mate to "turn off that f.... music!" To keep the peace, he reverted to punk, but then last week, he tells me, the same room-mate asked him to "leave it on... it kinda grows on you".
There's hope.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 07-29-2001).]

[Immortal Beloved]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
Why can't kids in school listen to Beethoven? There are some schools out there that dis beethoven because he was abusive in his life. Many historians do not think so. I think that if kids could listen to him and tell their teachers what thy think about him many people would change their minds.

I think we should go to our schools and the education departments and tell them how we feel. Both as parents and none parents. I have no kids myself but I know of families that would agree with me.

I agree with you my friend! I can't beleive teachers are stop teaching beethoven...I never heard anything like this before. We need to show those teachers a good lesson or two.

[Julie]

I don't know how relevant my post is but here goes

Remember when we used to watch Bugs Bunny cartoons? They sometimes used classical music to depict certain scenes, like for instance they had the marriage of Figaro, and when I listened to my new cd of Beethoven's Symphony No. 3, I recognized the "marcia funebre" from one of those cartoons as well!

Since most children will listen to almost any type of cartoons and enjoy them, I think this is the perfect media to introduce them to classical music at an early age. So when they hear it elsewhere, it will be familiar to them and it might be just what they need to make them want to listen to more and grow to appreciate it. JMHO

And I agree that classical music should definitely be taught in school, I wish I would of had that in school when I was growing up! I guess all forms of art nowadays are considered less important than the almighty "sports"