Classically snobbish?

[Peter]

Perhaps an intelligent way would be to take each of the "criteria" above and examine it more closely. Hence (and I quote from the source mentioned above):

To count as Art Music, a work (as a whole) must meet ALL* the following criteria:
1) It must acknowledge, build on or work from a musical heritage based on structure and tonality and its precursors.

Comments?

I'd rather you dealt first with my examples about 'improving' music.

[Quijote]

No, I'd rather deal first with the 10-point (or is it 9?) prescriptive criteria which were the point of my original posting of the article. I will be more than happy to address your particular issue after we have dissected the rest.

[Peter]

No, I'd rather deal first with the 10-point (or is it 9?) prescriptive criteria which were the point of my original posting of the article. I will be more than happy to address your particular issue after we have dissected the rest.

Then we'd best leave it there. I've said what I think of the article and the website - there is no need to go through point by point because it simply doesn't warrant that level of attention in my opinion which was my original point as well. It's up to you if you want to answer my other points or not.

[Quijote]

Then we'd best leave it there. I've said what I think of the article and the website - there is no need to go through point by point because it simply doesn't warrant that level of attention in my opinion which was my original point as well. It's up to you if you want to answer my other points or not.

Astonishing. Back to the fun teasers, then.

[Enrique]

Camille Mauclair used the term art (or artistic) music, in his The Religion of Music, to describe what is now commonly called classical music.

One thing I find objectionable about popular music is that it has secluded itself in the past. It consistently sticks to the major-minor system. It uses the same methods of composition, rules or elements which composers employed in the time of Johann Christian Bach. And it uses them reduced to their minimum expression. For example, it knows of no harmony other than tonic, dominant and subdominant. However, it calls itself modern music.

I only wanted to add a little feedback to this thread. Perhaps a little off-topic.

[Peter]

Camille Mauclair used the term art (or artistic) music, in his The Religion of Music, to describe what is now commonly called classical music.

One thing I find objectionable about popular music is that it has secluded itself in the past. It consistently sticks to the major-minor system. It uses the same methods of composition, rules or elements which composers employed in the time of Johann Christian Bach. And it uses them reduced to their minimum expression. For example, it knows of no harmony other than tonic, dominant and subdominant. However, it calls itself modern music.

I only wanted to add a little feedback to this thread. Perhaps a little off-topic.

Well even though this thread got off to a bad start (admittedly my fault I think in misinterpreting Philip) it is interesting to have some other view points on these matters. I personally could list a lot of things I find objectionable about popular culture but with regard to music I think the main one is that it is a reversal of roles - instead of the performer being a means to present the music, the music has become the means to present the performer. This is what repelled Liszt (often cited as the first rock star!) from his own virtuoso career.

[Enrique]

... instead of the performer being a means to present the music, the music has become the means to present the performer.

Exactly. A very good description.

This is what repelled Liszt (often cited as the first rock star!) from his own virtuoso career.

Could you expand? I do not quite get the meaning, although "often cited as the first rock star" seems to elucidate it.

[Peter]

Exactly. A very good description.

Could you expand? I do not quite get the meaning, although "often cited as the first rock star" seems to elucidate it.

With the help of his good looks he created an image that was not unlike the modern pop star - i.e he had become more important than the music he was presenting. He was very much criticised for playing around with other composers' music to create a more dazzling effect, such as doubling octaves and adding all sorts of other embellishments merely to outdo his rivals and spread his fame. Liszt later came to recognise the emptiness of public adulation and sought something deeper - I think he had what we would call today a spiritual crisis and it was reflected not only in his abandonment of his career as a performer but also his turning to the church. The result was some of his best music.

[Enrique]

Thanks for your illustrative explanation. I had once the score of his transcription for piano of the nine symphonies and had a pianist play some of it. I imagine its execution calls for a student in the tenth year of his piano studies, at least?

[Peter]

Thanks for your illustrative explanation. I had once the score of his transcription for piano of the nine symphonies and had a pianist play some of it. I imagine its execution calls for a student in the tenth year of his piano studies, at least?

Of course I wasn't thinking of these when I referred to Liszt's tinkering with other composers - these transcriptions are very fine indeed and as you say very difficult to play.

[Preston]

In light of this thread, what I want to focus on is good and bad music:

So, because of this thread, for some reason, I looked on youtube at some hardcore heavy metal and some hardcore rap to see what it was like. I have seen it before but wanted to refresh my memory - and refresh it, it did.

After I was done struggling to listen to anymore - in all truth, I felt terrible horror and fear from what I had seen on youtube. I started to pray, literally. I listened to one band called Pantera - regarding the people the scene was bad enough (that is primarily what sent shrills down my spine) - they were brutal and disturbed, imo, to a degree I cannot really imagine - and then the death metal, etc. music came in. The singer then started screaming and yelling, in the most hardcore of ways, brutal cursing about things that are better not mentioned.

In truth, when I imagined what it would be like if I were to attend a concert of such a nature - I was scared and worried. The horror - yes, horror - it was like some kind of extremely horrific scene of death and pain.

It scared the heck out of me! I mean I dropped to the ground praying to I don't know what!?

I just wanted to share that.

[Peter]

In light of this thread, what I want to focus on is good and bad music:

So, because of this thread, for some reason, I looked on youtube at some hardcore heavy metal and some hardcore rap to see what it was like. I have seen it before but wanted to refresh my memory - and refresh it, it did.

After I was done struggling to listen to anymore - in all truth, I felt terrible horror and fear from what I had seen on youtube. I started to pray, literally. I listened to one band called Pantera - regarding the people the scene was bad enough (that is primarily what sent shrills down my spine) - they were brutal and disturbed, imo, to a degree I cannot really imagine - and then the death metal, etc. music came in. The singer then started screaming and yelling, in the most hardcore of ways, brutal cursing about things that are better not mentioned.

In truth, when I imagined what it would be like if I were to attend a concert of such a nature - I was scared and worried. The horror - yes, horror - it was like some kind of extremely horrific scene of death and pain.

It scared the heck out of me! I mean I dropped to the ground praying to I don't know what!?

I just wanted to share that.

Yes well that's the sort of thing that is considered perfectly acceptable now which is an obvious sign I would have thought that something is very wrong - I think you need an antedote, try this lovely orchestral version of Beethoven's 'cavatina' from the quartet op.130, it's very slow and meditative!

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6TbsbKukqM[/YOUTUBE]

[Preston]

Yes well that's the sort of thing that is considered perfectly acceptable now which is an obvious sign I would have thought that something is very wrong - I think you need an antedote, try this lovely orchestral version of Beethoven's 'cavatina' from the quartet op.130, it's very slow and meditative!

Peter, I must say, that was most beautiful. I have heard the Op. 130 quartet and, while I like it, I must say that hearing it with a full string orchestra in such a lush manner was most enjoyable! It is a very moving piece. Personally, I do not know which I felt more of - care, depth, or sadness, etc. I think a combination of all. Anyway, thank you for that.

Regarding the topic. I want to say a lesson I have learned in life. Imo, somethings to value above most all things are calmness within yourself and mind, peacefulness within yourself and mind, clarity, pleasantness, etc. These are, to my mind as of now, some of the most important traits an individual can have. The reason I say this is because - people/individuals, imo, have become the opposite of all the above traits - and have become wild, insanely wild, violent and cruel, ruthless, out-of-control of themselves, mindlessly mad, etc. - and most importantly unable to value comfort, peace, calmness, etc.!!! And that is an unimaginable problem.

Also, Peter, I tell you after watching those videos - Bill Gates would almost seem to be a saint, !!!- somehow?

[AeolianHarp]

I have read it and still don't see why it should belong here - whilst not agreeing with the criteria or all the comments on that website, neither do I agree with the inverted snobbery that seeks to equate classical music with the level of a pop tune on X factor. I make no apologies for saying that the music of Beethoven is superior in every way to the mindless formulaic trash that is pumped out daily by desperate talentless wanabees - as a teacher of harmony at a conservatoire I would have thought that would be crystal clear to you as well.

Totally agree- How can something as majestic and elevated as the Ninth Symphony be equated with a pop song???? The second movement is so achingly beautiful and divine,no words can adequately do justice to how it makes me feel.

However:

After I was done struggling to listen to anymore - in all truth, I felt terrible horror and fear from what I had seen on youtube. I started to pray, literally. I listened to one band called Pantera - regarding the people the scene was bad enough (that is primarily what sent shrills down my spine) - they were brutal and disturbed, imo, to a degree I cannot really imagine - and then the death metal, etc. music came in. The singer then started screaming and yelling, in the most hardcore of ways, brutal cursing about things that are better not mentioned.

In truth, when I imagined what it would be like if I were to attend a concert of such a nature - I was scared and worried. The horror - yes, horror - it was like some kind of extremely horrific scene of death and pain.

Therein lies the difference. And we have, at the other the other end, mind numbing inaneness of bubblegum music which says nothing useful or profound.

The emotions in Beethoven's music, especially the Hammerklavier, travel through exhulatation, sadness, loneliness, sorrow, regret ( to name but afew)- they are like an account of his life's emotions, yet they do not leave one feeling horror struck- there is never horror and B always leaves his music with a satisfying resolution. He wants you to feel good not bad.

Beethoven's 'cavatina' from the quartet op.130- gorgeous.

[glindhot]

What was Beethoven's favourite piece of his own music?

Very likely it was the Cavatina even though he never ever heard a single solitary note of it except in his mind. He confessed that nothing he had written had so moved him; in fact, that merely to revive it afterwards in his thoughts and feelings brought him to tears.

In 1977, two spacecraft were launched on journeys beyond the solar system and off to the infinities of space. Each carried a gold phonograph record of the Earth's music, including Beethoven's Cavatina.

I like to think that in millions, or even billions, of years from now, some extra-terrestrial being will find that music, will listen to the Cavatina, and be brought to tears.