Heresy!

[Delirious Lab]

From the new guy, no less... Here's the question:

Has Beethoven disappointed you in any way, musically?

I'll start to give you a flavor of the kind of answer I'm looking for: The opening movement of the Fifth Symphony leaves me wanting more. More specifically, I would have loved it if the development section had been, well... more developed. Such a monumental work should have a 12 or 15-minute first movement.

Your thoughts?

[Sorrano]

I've always been comfortable with the development of the famous motif. Perhaps the second theme could have used some more? However, the pace and urgency of the movement might have suffered if it had dragged out a lot longer.

[Peter]

Sometimes less is more and it could easily have been overdone - perhaps a lesser composer would have done just that? I think the proportions of the first movement are perfect and I think it would have been too easy and rather boring to drag that simple motive out over a 15 minute movement - it is an exercise in concision and taut rhythmic control.

To your wider question I'll have to give more thought, but generally my answer would be no and the reason is that Beethoven was the greatest master of form and consequently the proportions of his works are perfect. Of course there are moments such as the closing pages of the 5th symphony where one could argue he got rather carried away in a blaze of C major that might have benefited from a little pruning!

[Quijote]

My lawyer here in France (Monsieur Rudolphe Triple de Merde, of Partners Poursuivre, Saisir et Courir*) advises me that I should make no comments whatsoever.

[Delirious Lab]

I kind of agree with you, Sorrano and Peter. I imagine B would have faced constraints to expanding this movement, not the least of which is the stupendous economy of thematic material. This wasn't the place to explode the sonata form à la Eroica, and by the way didn't he introduce an entirely new theme in the development there? I don't know that I'd be willing to pay that price in the 5th.

Still, I'm left a bit wanting with a sonata structure that (with the exception of the awesome coda) hasn't evolved much from, say, Eine kleine Nachtmusik...

*ducks for the hail of eggs and tomatoes*

But please, I made this thread half with tongue in cheek - I'm also a Wagnerite whose main complaint about the Ring is that it's too short...

[Michael]

As Peter says above, "less is more" and this motto particularly applies to Beethoven and the first movement of the Fifth Symphony. For example, he spent a very long time agonising over the last few bars - there was something bothering him about that ending. He thought it was too abrupt so extended it and then shortened it again but still it wasn't quite right.
Finally, it dawned on him that what was wrong with the ending was not that it was too short - but not short enough.
This is all clear from the sketches as Leonard Bernstein explains here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQdlGlYU70

[Sorrano]

My lawyer here in France (Monsieur Rudolphe Triple de Merde, of Partners Poursuivre, Saisir et Courir*) advises me that I should make no comments whatsoever.

Lol!

Your comments would be welcome; you have much to add regardless of the flavor.

[Sorrano]

I kind of agree with you, Sorrano and Peter. I imagine B would have faced constraints to expanding this movement, not the least of which is the stupendous economy of thematic material. This wasn't the place to explode the sonata form à la Eroica, and by the way didn't he introduce an entirely new theme in the development there? I don't know that I'd be willing to pay that price in the 5th.

Still, I'm left a bit wanting with a sonata structure that (with the exception of the awesome coda) hasn't evolved much from, say, Eine kleine Nachtmusik...

*ducks for the hail of eggs and tomatoes*

But please, I made this thread half with tongue in cheek - I'm also a Wagnerite whose main complaint about the Ring is that it's too short...

Keep in mind, too, that you do have further development of the principle motif in the subsequent movements.

[Peter]

My lawyer here in France (Monsieur Rudolphe Triple de Merde, of Partners Poursuivre, Saisir et Courir*) advises me that I should make no comments whatsoever.

Well of course the triple concerto 3rd movement excepted! In general though Beethoven is a master of form, he knows exactly what to say and when to shut up, unlike a certain Franz Shoemaker who was prone on occasion to an extended ramble - something I am also prone to as doubtless my pupils will testify!

[Quijote]

You're rambling! Huts up!

[Quijote]

[...] But please, I made this thread half with tongue in cheek - I'm also a Wagnerite whose main complaint about the Ring is that it's too short...

What might your views be on Bruckner?

[Quijote]

Please be heretical.