Chailly lets Beethoven run

[Quijote]

And whilst we're on the topic, do you not feel that music has to have "balls"? Depends on the composer of course. Beethoven, I would tentatively suggest, has a good pair of the aforementioned. Bruckner too; Bach also has a magnificent duo of the necessaries... Schubert? Felix M? Am I rambling?

[Quijote]

Am I about to launch into another old hot potato about gender in music? [No, because you're fired. Ed]

[Sorrano]

Am I about to launch into another old hot potato about gender in music? [No, because you're fired. Ed]

But isn't the word music based on a feminine noun? At least the Spanish word is: la musica.

[Sorrano]

And whilst we're on the topic, do you not feel that music has to have "balls"? Depends on the composer of course. Beethoven, I would tentatively suggest, has a good pair of the aforementioned. Bruckner too; Bach also has a magnificent duo of the necessaries... Schubert? Felix M? Am I rambling?

Which composers would you consider not to have them?

[Preston]

I listened to your Mozart and that to me is distortion - I'm sorry for being blunt but it is Preston NOT Mozart.

Peter, no offense at all, , it is perfectly understandable. The thing is, that is how I understand/interpretate the Mozart symphony. You mention Gould and I wonder what you think of his interpretation and understanding of the Appassionata and the Hammerklavier?

Please forgive my writing below, it is sloppy, and not what all I want to say:

Good music, or music done properly, to my mind, is about feelings - whether they be pleasant or harsh, etc. What I have learned about feelings is they are meant to be felt deeply and touched on deeply - not rammed in my ears at an unprecedented level of speed and notes. This is why I have trouble with the baroque and classical styles. I enjoy certain pieces but other pieces I find intolerable and bothersome.

So what confuses me is that what are considered the most touching pieces of music are often times a rush of notes - making it untouching, imo. It is hard for me coming from a beautifully played shakuhachi meditation to a fast piece, for the reasons I have mentioned. Is that not understandable?

There is no doubt to my mind that many of the musicians of classical music are great. Then you have the masters, Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, etc. who I know are beyond imagination, imo.

It is just when regarding feelings (which, to my understanding, is the very point of great music) - why so fast? - which causes distortion of feeling and enjoyment.

[Peter]

Peter, no offense at all, , it is perfectly understandable. The thing is, that is how I understand/interpretate the Mozart symphony. You mention Gould and I wonder what you think of his interpretation and understanding of the Appassionata and the Hammerklavier?

Please forgive my writing below, it is sloppy, and not what all I want to say:

Good music, or music done properly, to my mind, is about feelings - whether they be pleasant or harsh, etc. What I have learned about feelings is they are meant to be felt deeply and touched on deeply - not rammed in my ears at an unprecedented level of speed and notes. This is why I have trouble with the baroque and classical styles. I enjoy certain pieces but other pieces I find intolerable and bothersome.

So what confuses me is that what are considered the most touching pieces of music are often times a rush of notes - making it untouching, imo. It is hard for me coming from a beautifully played shakuhachi meditation to a fast piece, for the reasons I have mentioned. Is that not understandable?

There is no doubt to my mind that many of the musicians of classical music are great. Then you have the masters, Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, etc. who I know are beyond imagination, imo.

It is just when regarding feelings (which, to my understanding, is the very point of great music) - why so fast? - which causes distortion of feeling and enjoyment.

Preston I don't know why you single out the Classical and Baroque periods as being bothersome regarding fast tempos? There is plenty of fast music in 19th and 20th century styles as well. Then the Baroque and classical also have plenty of very slow music for your enjoyment - just as it would be wrong to speed up music intended to be slow, it is wrong to slow down music intended to be fast. If it is relaxing meditative music you require then there is plenty also in earlier periods such as the Renaissance, but you can hardly criticise Beethoven for writing music depicting a storm (as in Philip's example) because it isn't slow or peaceful enough and then altering it to your own specifications!

[Alberto Venni]

A lot of replies; but did any one of you hear the recording of Chailly?

[Curiosity]

I'm going to be seeing him conduct the Eroica live in November. My first classical concert. I prefer the faster tempo in Beethoven. I can't abide by the Mahler-ised performances of the Eroica from conductors like Klemperer and Barenboim which barely even qualify as "allegro". Seriously, listen to the Knappertsbusch on this page!

http://www.grunin.com/eroica/

[Quijote]

Which composers would you consider not to have them?

Clara Schumann?

[Preston]

Preston I don't know why you single out the Classical and Baroque periods as being bothersome regarding fast tempos? There is plenty of fast music in 19th and 20th century styles as well. Then the Baroque and classical also have plenty of very slow music for your enjoyment - just as it would be wrong to speed up music intended to be slow, it is wrong to slow down music intended to be fast. If it is relaxing meditative music you require then there is plenty also in earlier periods such as the Renaissance, but you can hardly criticise Beethoven for writing music depicting a storm (as in Philip's example) because it isn't slow or peaceful enough and then altering it to your own specifications!

Peter, of course I know there is plenty of fast music in the Romantic era and even Renaissance. Most of the Romantic music just sounds different regarding speeds, to my ears - most not all.

As for the Pastoral, that mov. does not call for peaceful. Slow - perhaps? Slow and fast - perhaps? Faster - perhaps? The same - perhaps? Etc.

All in all each piece, mov., note, passage, etc. needs to be played as it is understood by the listener, it seems. Whether it is fast, slow, dark, light, painful, sorrowful, peaceful, insane, etc.

Either way, its a confusing subject for me and I am not a clear thinker. Though, to my mind, regarding music:

FAST = INSANE (for the most part)

I often think that with Beethoven's musical abilities he could hear the Hammerklavier, etc. at a snails pace, if he wanted to.

[Quijote]

He's an interesting article for you all about Chailly, Beethoven and new music. In the article Preston, there is a reference to Chailly taking Beethoven at faster speeds, "stripped of its Romantic fat", and therefore closer to Beethoven's original intentions.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...ccardo-chailly

[Peter]

He's an interesting article for you all about Chailly, Beethoven and new music. In the article Preston, there is a reference to Chailly taking Beethoven at faster speeds, "stripped of its Romantic fat", and therefore closer to Beethoven's original intentions.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...ccardo-chailly

Interesting but I don't see the point of Chailly's commissions - to put the 9th in context why not perform it with works written by other composers from the 1820s?
Preston may like this blog I found though on that page about B's 9th slowed down over 24 hours apparently without pitch distortion. I haven't listened!
http://zylblog.com/2010/03/beethoven...-for-24-hours/

[Quijote]

Here's a brief follow-up article/review to the Chailly article posted above:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...chailly-review

[Peter]

Back to the original article - well really he's a bit up himself n'est pas? I mean comments like "The modernity of Beethoven is so clearly there in the music, in an alarming way. And my approach will stress that modernity." What's that supposed to mean?

"That way, Beethoven still stands with great pride next to the contemporary composers. He holds his own, without losing his powers."
Oh really, so Beethoven's reputation isn't in danger from Dennis Mathews and the others after all!

"Really, the modern composers are the ones who are enriched by the aura of these inspirational symphonies." Well at least he got that bit right.

[Sorrano]

From time to time it seems that we have an inherent need to reinvent Beethoven and other great composers by viewing them in different contexts. The HIP movement was such an event and from my perspective it was rather effective in giving me a new approach to the music. Personally, I like the idea of setting Beethoven in this "modernity" context. It's a good evaluation of how the music holds up 200 years later.