Chailly lets Beethoven run

[Sorrano]

I certainly agree with you in principle. The concert houses, themselves, with whatever acoustic features they may have, will affect the tempo and intensity of any performance opposed to a sterile recording environment with enhanced, but falsified audio effects.

[Quijote]

And I know this is off-topic, but I am not a fan of WAM vocal production. WAM = western art music. No, I do not like the standardized wide vibrato production expected of classical music singers. Neither do I like too much vibrato on string instruments (à la Rostro). If there is one soprano I like, it has to be Emma Kirkby. Check her out via Google.

[Peter]

Precisely. Czerny is not reliable, and he was one of B's favoured pupils! I can't speak for you, Headmaster, but I treat metronome markings as I do the more usual Italianate adjectives : they are indications, not prescriptions.

Yes I agree - of course they are only guide lines and Beethoven thought so himself. My point is simply that the argument of Beethoven's faulty metronome doesn't stand up.

[Preston]

What were Czerny's tempo markings? Are they slower? And, have they ever been recorded?

[Preston]

One thing I enjoy is when a musician is willing to experiment with the composers tempo and in doing so find a tempo that the musician enjoys. Many may like Beethoven's given tempos, though, with New Age (which often relies on slow and meditative tempos) music being one of my preferred genres when I listen to Beethoven it is like a rush of notes.

I'm just saying that I like interpretation by the performers that does not follow the tempos, markings, etc. I find it interesting.

A problem I have is that most all the conductor's and performers follow the strict "guidelines" (tempos, marking, etc.) of the composer and therefore most all performances sound pretty much the same, in a sense.

So I say, experiment with the music, one should play it how one understands it, one should play it how one enjoys it, etc.

[Peter]

One thing I enjoy is when a musician is willing to experiment with the composers tempo and in doing so find a tempo that the musician enjoys. Many may like Beethoven's given tempos, though, with New Age (which often relies on slow and meditative tempos) music being one of my preferred genres when I listen to Beethoven it is like a rush of notes.

I'm just saying that I like interpretation by the performers that does not follow the tempos, markings, etc. I find it interesting.

A problem I have is that most all the conductor's and performers follow the strict "guidelines" (tempos, marking, etc.) of the composer and therefore most all performances sound pretty much the same, in a sense.

So I say, experiment with the music, one should play it how one understands it, one should play it how one enjoys it, etc.

Up to a point - of course a performer has to interpret but he needs to respect the composer's intentions or else you have distortion. Preston it isn't just about the metronome markings - Beethoven makes it quite clear especially in the later works with his use of Italian (and sometimes German) markings. If he marks a piece presto or Allegro con brio, he doesn't want it played slowly! Of course there is a degree of variation possible and if you prefer slower recordings then that is fine, so long as Presto isn't turned into adagio!

[Sorrano]

Presto isn't turned into adagio!

Maybe it's just Presto(n) that wants to be an adagio?

[Preston]

Maybe it's just Presto(n) that wants to be an adagio?

I do love sustained feelings.

[Sorrano]

You should listen to a Bruckner adagio (latest on my mind comes from the 7th symphony).

[Peter]

I do love sustained feelings.

That is fine but you have to recognise that it is your personal preference and it is wrong to distort a composer's intentions just to fit in with it. Take for example Rimsky-Korsakov's 'flight of the bumblebee' - it would be ludicrous to slow this piece down so that it resembles more the crawl of a snail or to turn the Ride of the Valkyries into donkeys on Blackpool beach!

Composers depict all sorts of emotions in their music and rightly so as how dull it would be with no contrast but always slow reflective music. This is why there are different movements within a work. This is no criticism of your personal tastes but only an attempt to clarify the issues because you do tend to blame musicians who are actually correctly interpreting the music.

Beethoven (like all composers) wrote plenty of slow music and I don't know if you know the 3rd movt from the A minor quartet op.132 but I think it captures perfectly the sustained feelings you like and yes you would be quite right if anyone dared to play this fast!

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXiOrAwLlOA&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

[Preston]

That is fine but you have to recognise that it is your personal preference and it is wrong to distort a composer's intentions just to fit in with it.

Well it is not about 'my' personal preference, anything but naturally. Unless I am the one playing it, !

Though, I think when you say that about distorting the composers intentions that it is wrong. I don't wish to 'distort' their intentions I just wish to enjoy their music. I don't think a composers intentions are being distorted by slowing their music down?

All I was saying was that I enjoy when the performers of a piece of music take the time to study the music learn about it and then play it the way they most enjoy it - whether it be the same tempo or not. This is why I enjoy Gould's interpretation of Beethoven's Appassionata and Hammerklavier more. Because it is like he took the time to understand what he, Gould, felt and understood about the piece and played it as he understood it - that is what I like. Instead of following the standard, where every performance sounds pretty much the same, with usually the most notable difference being in dynamics, Gould, I feel, played it as he understood it.

Really all I am saying is I like experimentation. I know that some of you apparently don't and feel it is almost like treason to the music, but I am all for it.

For instance, I have been practicing the first bar of Mozart's 25th symphony. I enjoy this piece more when it is played slowly so that is how I have been playing it, and when I hear it there is much more depth with the slower tempo. I will post some of what I have played in a little while so that you and anyone else can hear what I am talking about.

[Preston]

I guess in short, I just have trouble feeling tempos of such speed. Maybe the fault is mine? I cannot understand such fast tempos so I resort to slower tempos - which to my mind are calmer, more enjoyable, etc. Though, it really depends on not only the composer but the piece. For instance, there are Beethoven pieces that should blaze but then there are pieces that are performed at blazing speeds but should not be, imo.

I did this short little clip of Mozart's 25th symphony and in it are my questions. It is nothing special and please forgive messy playing and mistakes. Though, I feel that it may be of help so that you can see what I am talking about.

I just don't get those blazing tempos, unless the piece calls for it.

Though, it is all confusing to me. I sometimes wonder if Beethoven is even played correctly by the top orchestras? I wonder if the feelings have been lost after 100's of years and the music has turned to just notes on a page? I wonder a lot of things about classical music and the individual composers styles?

I really don't know though. I just like to listen to it how I enjoy it.

http://www.box.net/shared/476ij9mbjamca5bh6lm1

Anyway, I hope by showing this you can understand better where I am coming from. While I play it fast sometimes that is only to show you why I like it slower. Also, just realized I should have gone to Bb instead of B! Sorry about that.

[Peter]

Well it is not about 'my' personal preference, anything but naturally. Unless I am the one playing it, !

Though, I think when you say that about distorting the composers intentions that it is wrong. I don't wish to 'distort' their intentions I just wish to enjoy their music. I don't think a composers intentions are being distorted by slowing their music down?

All I was saying was that I enjoy when the performers of a piece of music take the time to study the music learn about it and then play it the way they most enjoy it - whether it be the same tempo or not. This is why I enjoy Gould's interpretation of Beethoven's Appassionata and Hammerklavier more. Because it is like he took the time to understand what he, Gould, felt and understood about the piece and played it as he understood it - that is what I like. Instead of following the standard, where every performance sounds pretty much the same, with usually the most notable difference being in dynamics, Gould, I feel, played it as he understood it.

Really all I am saying is I like experimentation. I know that some of you apparently don't and feel it is almost like treason to the music, but I am all for it.

For instance, I have been practicing the first bar of Mozart's 25th symphony. I enjoy this piece more when it is played slowly so that is how I have been playing it, and when I hear it there is much more depth with the slower tempo. I will post some of what I have played in a little while so that you and anyone else can hear what I am talking about.

You are of course entitled to play and listen to music as you like and I'm glad you appreciate Gould's playing - actually his two very different recordings of Bach's Goldberg variations are a good example of this experimentation you are talking about. However more leeway is possible with that and much Baroque because the composers were less precise about the interpretation than later composers.

I listened to your Mozart and that to me is distortion - I'm sorry for being blunt but it is Preston NOT Mozart. You are making it sound how you want it to be without consideration of what Mozart actually wrote which was Allegro con Brio. If he wanted it played that slowly why didn't he mark it Largo? I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy it how you like and if by slowing it down you get more out of it then all well and good, but it isn't how it is meant to be played - that movement is meant to be quick and it follows the typical classical plan of fast first movement followed by a slow movement.

To say that the world's top orchestras and musicians don't know what they are doing is rather strange - these are professional musicians who are the best in the world - they have spent years of study and are masters of their instruments. I'm not saying there is only one way of playing a piece, but one of the most important lessons an artist has to learn is integrity - respect for the score. You can't simply ignore what a composer has written and Beethoven in his later music becomes very specific indeed - in Op.110 there are over 50 performance directions in just 2 pages.

There has been much research into past performance practice and actually what we find is that tempos were often quicker than was thought earlier in the 20th century. Now none of this is meant as an attack on you Preston, but you have to recognise that you do obviously have a problem with fast tempos for whatever reason - I'm not sure what to suggest except that there is even within a fast tempo a degree of variation, Klemperer's recordings of Beethoven for example are notoriously slower than most, but not to the extent of your Mozart symphony no.25!

[Quijote]

I think Peter pretty much sums up the argument, Preston. If you have problems with very fast passages, you should remember that one is not expected to catch every single note, as it is the effect that counts. Think of the "storm" in B's 6th, rapid notes flying around everywhere. If played too slowly, it would hardly be a storm, no?

[Quijote]

Because if the "storm" in B's 6th were played too slowly, you'd get some sort of damp, rainy Monday, rather like the weather in the UK on most days. How dull.