Chailly lets Beethoven run

[terry]

Italian director Riccardo Chailly has recorded for DECCA and now he's on tour with new version of Symphonies, veeery quick according to the original scores: why so? Opinions: he was deaf - or: he didn't manage the metronome well. A discussion will be opened soon in musical environment. I cannot discuss it, btw I prefer Karajan to Toscanini.

[Preston]

Italian director Riccardo Chailly has recorded for DECCA and now he's on tour with new version of Symphonies, veeery quick according to the original scores: why so? Opinions: he was deaf - or: he didn't manage the metronome well. A discussion will be opened soon in musical environment. I cannot discuss it, btw I prefer Karajan to Toscanini.

Concerning the very quick tempos: imo, what a waste. Moving feelings and emotions are meant to be savored, felt in peace and comfort, etc. - not flown through like they are stark-raving mad! Again, to my mind, what a waste.

[Chris]

I don't see how being deaf could possibly cause him to be unaware of the effects of his indicated tempos.

[Peter]

I don't see how being deaf could possibly cause him to be unaware of the effects of his indicated tempos.

Exactly and it isn't rocket science either - Crotchet beat (quarter note)= 60 is beating out seconds. I find it bizarre that so called musical scholars can accept that Beethoven can produce the Missa Solemnis, 9th symphony and last quartets whilst stone deaf but then suggest he didn't have a clue about his tempi!

[Quijote]

Exactly and it isn't rocket science either - Crotchet beat (quarter note)= 60 is beating out seconds. I find it bizarre that so called musical scholars can accept that Beethoven can produce the Missa Solemnis, 9th symphony and last quartets whilst stone deaf but then suggest he didn't have a clue about his tempi!

Still, some of B's metronome markings do raise certain eyebrows, wouldn't you say? I am reminded of one of Andras Schiff's lecture-recitals (for the Opus 2, N° 1 / F minor) where he tells us that B's pupil Czerny left us two editions on "the correct performance of B's piano sonatas" : in the first edition he indicated what he thought were the correct metronome speeds, yet in his second edition (some 20 years later) gave completely different values. One would think that Czerny would have been a reliable source.
Further, we know that even Stravinsky and Bartok gave metronome markings for (some?) of their works, but on record they are known not to have even respected their own indications!

[Quijote]

I am glad though that even when there is a metronome indication, there is often (if not always) an adjoining subjective (and hence very imprecise) adjective such as "allegro", or "adagio ma non troppo", or "très vif" which renders the exercise wholly unlike rocket science.
Speaking from very vague (and probably defective) memory here, I remember reading some article that suggested the "allegros" in Mozart/Haydn/Beethoven's day were taken quicker than they are today. What that idea is based on I cannot imagine!
However, what I call "fast" might seem rushed (or slowish) to other ears. Who can say?

[Sorrano]

Speaking from very vague (and probably defective) memory here, I remember reading some article that suggested the "allegros" in Mozart/Haydn/Beethoven's day were taken quicker than they are today. What that idea is based on I cannot imagine!
However, what I call "fast" might seem rushed (or slowish) to other ears. Who can say?

In trying to determine tempi of various contemporary (to Beethoven, etc.) piano works I've gotten very mixed results in fast and slow(ish) allegros as far as the recorded literature goes. I do not find a lot of consistency, often with a same work.

[Peter]

Still, some of B's metronome markings do raise certain eyebrows, wouldn't you say? I am reminded of one of Andras Schiff's lecture-recitals (for the Opus 2, N° 1 / F minor) where he tells us that B's pupil Czerny left us two editions on "the correct performance of B's piano sonatas" : in the first edition he indicated what he thought were the correct metronome speeds, yet in his second edition (some 20 years later) gave completely different values. One would think that Czerny would have been a reliable source.
Further, we know that even Stravinsky and Bartok gave metronome markings for (some?) of their works, but on record they are known not to have even respected their own indications!

Czerny reliable? You only have to look at his dreadful Bach edition to wonder about that! Is it really conceivable that Beethoven had no idea what tempi he was suggesting? I mean would he have been so careless about the matter not to have noticed a faulty metronome? Most musicians have some idea don't they of metronome speeds without actually using it?

[Quijote]

Czerny reliable? You only have to look at his dreadful Bach edition to wonder about that! Is it really conceivable that Beethoven had no idea what tempi he was suggesting? I mean would he have been so careless about the matter not to have noticed a faulty metronome? Most musicians have some idea don't they of metronome speeds without actually using it?

Precisely. Czerny is not reliable, and he was one of B's favoured pupils! I can't speak for you, Headmaster, but I treat metronome markings as I do the more usual Italianate adjectives : they are indications, not prescriptions.

[Quijote]

In trying to determine tempi of various contemporary (to Beethoven, etc.) piano works I've gotten very mixed results in fast and slow(ish) allegros as far as the recorded literature goes. I do not find a lot of consistency, often with a same work.

And thank God!

[Quijote]

Frozen music : nothing worse! Apart from frozen food!

[Quijote]

Is it really conceivable that Beethoven [or Stravinsky or Bartok] had no idea what tempi [they were] suggesting? I mean would [they] have been so careless about the matter not to have noticed a faulty metronome? Most musicians have some idea don't they of metronome speeds without actually using it?

I have made additions/modifications to your post above to point up and reiterate my earlier point : that there are recorded performances of Stravinsky and Bartok (conducting or playing) where they do not respect their own metronome markings.

[Sorrano]

And thank God!

I think it's interesting, too, how one can find a great deal of satisfaction with one work, yet very varied tempi. Celibadache, for example, (I refer specifically to Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony) may have a tempo slow to one extreme while someone else is the opposite, yet both performances work very well.

[Quijote]

I think it's interesting, too, how one can find a great deal of satisfaction with one work, yet very varied tempi. Celibadache, for example, (I refer specifically to Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony) may have a tempo slow to one extreme while someone else is the opposite, yet both performances work very well.

Yes, music is a narrative, and tempo-bound, if I may put it that way.

[Quijote]

Or to put it another way, music is so much more than the notes on the page. Which is why, ladies and gentlemen, we should burn our CDs immediately and only attend live concerts. At the same time, we can burn down the opera houses.