Equal temperament, tuning, etc.

[Quijote]

And about piano tuning (equal temperament) : I can't stand some of the intervals it makes, especially in low register.
Here's a comparative example : left hand : G (bottom line on the bass clef) and B (semitone under middle C) : lovely (just about). Keep that G in position in the left hand, and put that B an octave higher. Now, that's really lovely. Then play the same note G in the left hand (as above) and the B a strict major third above. What do I hear? A distorted and ugly 3rd. Maybe it's my ears. Any thoughts?

[Quijote]

If any of you have a piano, try it. Please report back, I think it could be interesting for all of us.

[Quijote]

And whilst we are all digesting that, we are, I suppose, being forced to reconsider why an F# is not precisely the same thing as a G-flat, outside of an equal temperament framework. Which of course leads to notions of "key character", which is an old hot potato that from time to time raises its ugly, spotty head on this forum and others. [We've been here before, you're boring us. You're fired. Again. Ed.]

[Sorrano]

If any of you have a piano, try it. Please report back, I think it could be interesting for all of us.

Have you tried this on both a digital and non-electric piano (should I say a real piano?) I won't be able to try that for a few hours, yet, as I am not home.

[Chris]

If any of you have a piano, try it. Please report back, I think it could be interesting for all of us.

Yes, any major third in the lower register of the piano sounds pretty bad. I always wondered why that was as a child fooling around on the piano. In the end I concluded that low notes just didn't sound good as chords, and that was the way it was!

[Quijote]

Have you tried this on both a digital and non-electric piano (should I say a real piano?) I won't be able to try that for a few hours, yet, as I am not home.

No, only on a real piano. Is there a difference (in tuning) with a digital piano? I honestly have no idea.

[Quijote]

Yes, any major third in the lower register of the piano sounds pretty bad. I always wondered why that was as a child fooling around on the piano. In the end I concluded that low notes just didn't sound good as chords, and that was the way it was!

And not just major thirds. What about perfect fifths? I can't speak for violinists, but I always tend to tune my two lowest strings (C-G) as a(n) (ever so) slightly narrower perfect fifth. This last example is why Arvo Pärt's "Fratres" for violin and piano (or the transcribed version for 'cello and piano) is very hard to bring off effectively.
To put it another way, my perfect fifths on the 'cello are a little bit elastic, depending on the register.

[Quijote]

Nothing worse than sloppy fifths, I say.

[Quijote]

For the violin, when I tune it for my daughter, I must say I find it a bit tricky to get the "right feel of a fifth" between the top A and E strings. Why's that, I wonder? It feels right to me when you get that special "zing", that perfect "resonance" (no micro beats whatsoever), that "perfect fifth"! If I try to tune it to the piano, I could smash it (the violin) on the floor. The piano is an unbending dictator, dammit.

[Preston]

For the violin, when I tune it for my daughter, I must say I find it a bit tricky to get the "right feel of a fifth" between the top A and E strings. Why's that, I wonder? It feels right to me when you get that special "zing", that perfect "resonance" (no micro beats whatsoever), that "perfect fifth"! If I try to tune it to the piano, I could smash it (the violin) on the floor. The piano is an unbending dictator, dammit.

For me, when I tune the guitar - I don't like it in perfect tune = 440. I tune it close to 440, but what fits my ear and what I enjoy. When each string is in 440 it sounds to perfect, to tight - and doesn't fit what I enjoy? So, I guess that proper tuning is based more on what ones own ear likes?

[Sorrano]

Sorry to intrude on an otherwise intended non-thread, I have to make this comment regarding tuning/temperament, etc. An advantage of owning an electric (digital) keyboard is that one can have different temperaments that are preset (if I were ambitious I could probably retune all of the keys). I have selected to use what's called Werckmeister/kirnberger temperament which has been described as a combination of Mean Tone and Pythagorean and that these were used during the times of Bach and Beethoven. It is different from the standard of today and took some getting used to (especially in regard to major triads; the major third sounded odd to me) but after using this for a few years I quite like it. Until I get my piano tuned (the real one) I will not really be able to make a good comparison.

Sorry, Philip, I had to make that comment. Maybe this thread can be useful?

[Quijote]

You're not intruding Sorrano, not in the least. I'm trying to pin down what tuning Beethoven would have used, one piste being a CD called "Beethoven in the Temperaments", with the pianist Katahn playing two sonatas by B on a modern Steinway but tuned according to 18th/19th century principles. It's not available via Amazon at the moment (but for one second hand copy at 100€ and I'm not paying that!).

[Sorrano]

No, only on a real piano. Is there a difference (in tuning) with a digital piano? I honestly have no idea.

The digital piano will have a clarity, especially with the lower register, that a "real" piano will not have. It must be due to the way the strings vibrate (although one can "hear" similar vibrations on a digital piano). In doing your experiment I find that all the intervals, as you have indicated, are rather pleasant to my ears on the digital piano. On my real piano the 3rd, g to b in the lower register, is a bit muddled and not as pleasant, but moving the b up an octave and two octaves is not a bad sound at all. However, in my case, that can be deceptive because this piano is out of tune. If you were to hear it, Philip, it would probably drive you bonkers.

[Quijote]

I am already quite bonkers, thank you! Fascinating to read though that you have preset tuning systems on your digital piano. That's a bit bloody handy, I must say! According to the blurb on the Katahn CD I'm trying to get hold of, it says that Beethoven used the "Prinz" tuning (please check spelling, I'm typing from memory). Can anyone confirm / correct / elaborate on that?

[Euan Mackinnon]

Philip 27th September, 2011-10-02
And about piano tuning (equal temperament) : I can't stand some of the intervals it makes, especially in low register. Here's a comparative example : left hand : G (bottom line on the bass clef) and B (semitone under middle C) : lovely (just about). Keep that G in position in the left hand, and put that B an octave higher. Now, that's really lovely. Then play the same note G in the left hand (as above) and the B a strict major third above. What do I hear? A distorted and ugly 3rd. Maybe it's my ears. Any thoughts?

Philip

I’m neither a musician nor a physicist but I would have thought the answer to your questions lies in the ‘problem’ caused by the compromise between the physics - no note sounded on any ‘normal’ instrument consists of just that note; there are a whole series of overtones etc – and the desire of composers to be able to change from any key to any key without incurring truly awful clashes – the so-called ‘wolf’ and the like.

I can develop the point if you wish.

Euan