Equal temperament, tuning, etc.

[Sorrano]

The piano is particularly vulnerable to these kinds of physics because of the how the soundboard and string assembly are set up and the acoustics of the box itself that houses them. It would be interesting to listen to different types of instrumental groups sound these intervals; we should get differing results.

[Quijote]

Philip 27th September, 2011-10-02
And about piano tuning (equal temperament) : I can't stand some of the intervals it makes, especially in low register. Here's a comparative example : left hand : G (bottom line on the bass clef) and B (semitone under middle C) : lovely (just about). Keep that G in position in the left hand, and put that B an octave higher. Now, that's really lovely. Then play the same note G in the left hand (as above) and the B a strict major third above. What do I hear? A distorted and ugly 3rd. Maybe it's my ears. Any thoughts?

Philip

I’m neither a musician nor a physicist but I would have thought the answer to your questions lies in the ‘problem’ caused by the compromise between the physics - no note sounded on any ‘normal’ instrument consists of just that note; there are a whole series of overtones etc – and the desire of composers to be able to change from any key to any key without incurring truly awful clashes – the so-called ‘wolf’ and the like.

I can develop the point if you wish.

Euan

Thanks Euan, I do kind of half understand the acoustic principles! I still don't know why the "F" on the 'cello G string (minor seventh above the open G, in third position) is almost invariably a "wolf" note (meaning it cannot be relied upon in normal performance: it all too often "cracks"!!).

[Quijote]

I do apologize for having abandoned this thread temporarily. I'm waiting for the Katahn CD I mentioned above ("Beethoven in the Temperaments") before I develop my ideas further. Bear with me, please.

[Euan Mackinnon]

Philip 14th October
I still don't know why the "F" on the 'cello G string (minor seventh above the open G, in third position) is almost invariably a "wolf" note (meaning it cannot be relied upon in normal performance: it all too often "cracks"!!)

Philip

May I (as a non-musician) request clarification?

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the interval G (on the open 2nd string) to the F above it (played on the same string) produces a ‘wolf’, defined in the OED as:

‘The harsh howling sound of certain chords on keyed instruments, particularly the organ, when tuned by any form of unequal temperament’ (Grove's Dict. Mus.); a chord or interval characterized by such a sound. [My emphasis].

Three questions:

1. Have I understood you correctly?
2. If so, and as I assume you cannot play both notes on the same string simultaneously, I presume you mean that the brain remembers one of the two notes then ‘hears’ the wolf when the other note is played. Is this what you are saying?
3. Why almost invariably? Does that mean there are exceptions, albeit rare ones? If so, could you give any further information on the relevant circumstances surrounding such exceptions?

Thank you for your help, Philip.

Euan

[Quijote]

Philip 14th October
I still don't know why the "F" on the 'cello G string (minor seventh above the open G, in fourth position) is almost invariably a "wolf" note (meaning it cannot be relied upon in normal performance: it all too often "cracks"!!)

Philip

May I (as a non-musician) request clarification?

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the interval G (on the open 2nd string) to the F above it (played on the same string) produces a ‘wolf’, defined in the OED as:

‘The harsh howling sound of certain chords on keyed instruments, particularly the organ, when tuned by any form of unequal temperament’ (Grove's Dict. Mus.); a chord or interval characterized by such a sound. [My emphasis].

Three questions:

1. Have I understood you correctly?
2. If so, and as I assume you cannot play both notes on the same string simultaneously, I presume you mean that the brain remembers one of the two notes then ‘hears’ the wolf when the other note is played. Is this what you are saying?
3. Why almost invariably? Does that mean there are exceptions, albeit rare ones? If so, could you give any further information on the relevant circumstances surrounding such exceptions?

Thank you for your help, Philip.

Euan

I have always called this note on the G string a "wolf" (though it sometimes "wolfs" on the F#, too). The term is commonly used by 'cellists.

Just to answer the three questions, then :
1) I think so!
2) No.
3) Yes, there are exceptions, for example if I adapt my bowing I can avoid it, but it is still an unreliable note on the G string. Playing it pizzicato is OK, it doesn't wolf when I do that.

Hope that helps, Euan!

[Quijote]

Actually Euan, the "wolf note" on my 'cello has nothing to do with your OED defiition above, so my answer to your question 1 (above) is : No, I don't think so.
Sorry for the confusion.

[Chris]

Is it just your cello, Philip, or is this common?

[Quijote]

Check out this site :
http://www.aitchisoncellos.com/articlewolf.htm

[Quijote]

Don't violins have wolf notes? We shall not descend to the level of violas, for they are beyond the pale. Double basses? Every note is a wolf note. Hah!

[Sorrano]

Don't violins have wolf notes? We shall not descend to the level of violas, for they are beyond the pale. Double basses? Every note is a wolf note. Hah!

Would you consider the lower register notes in the contrabassoons as wolf notes or are these something else?

[Quijote]

Would you consider the lower register notes in the contrabassoons as wolf notes or are these something else?

Yet again Sorrano, you've caught me out! Nah, they are lovely, redolent notes. I also love the bass clarinet's lower register : no "wolfs" [sic] there!

[Quijote]

Still, when I hear a bassoon I can't help but giggle. You?
Well, maybe not with that bassoon passage at the opening of Igor's "Rite...". That is quite beautiful, but I always hold my breath when it is played (dreading some cracked notes).

[Quijote]

Actually, the bassoon is rather an "unsung" hero of the orchestra when you come to think of it. The bassoon : the 'cello of the wind section.

[Quijote]

Would you believe I once had about 7 or 8 lessons on the bassoon? Couldn't get my head around it, really I couldn't.

[Sorrano]

I rather like the bassoon, but particularly in the upper registers. It has a very different sound there.