Lost Beethoven work

[Peter]

I have no idea what percentage is Baz Cooper; only a close look at the sketches and reconstructed score could tell me that.
What pleased me was to hear what the professor and the quartet's 1st violinist had to say about Cooper's effort : that nobody is attempting to supplant B's final word, but it can be treated as an appendix; further (in my own words), that it reveals compositional choices and is a highly interesting exercise in and for itself.

But wasn't B's final word to discard it? Therefore reconstructing is supplanting n'est-pas? Isn't this also one reason why Brahms destroyed his sketches and early works so he wouldn't be subjected to this academic tinkering? It's a pity we don't still have the sketches B made on the shutters at Baden for his late quartets - fascinating to see what Cooper could have done with the 'Window' quartet and we could have compared his effort with Beethoven's to see which was best!

[Quijote]

But wasn't B's final word to discard it? Therefore reconstructing is supplanting n'est-pas? Isn't this also one reason why Brahms destroyed his sketches and early works so he wouldn't be subjected to this academic tinkering? It's a pity we don't still have the sketches B made on the shutters at Baden for his late quartets - fascinating to see what Cooper could have done with the 'Window' quartet and we could have compared his effort with Beethoven's to see which was best!

Oh dear Headmaster, we are getting all hot under the collar, n'est pas? I post here a YouTube sketch which makes me think of you. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X3BJIAgkM8

[Quijote]

But wasn't B's final word to discard it? Therefore reconstructing is supplanting n'est-pas? Isn't this also one reason why Brahms destroyed his sketches and early works so he wouldn't be subjected to this academic tinkering? It's a pity we don't still have the sketches B made on the shutters at Baden for his late quartets - fascinating to see what Cooper could have done with the 'Window' quartet and we could have compared his effort with Beethoven's to see which was best!

Yes, Beethoven's final word was to supplant his original conception. The reconstruction is an (academic) exercise that remains fascinating, and I am curious to know why this does not excite a modicum of interest in you. If reconstructing the sketches throws light on Beethoven's compositional choices and thinking, where is the harm? And nobody is forcing you to listen to these reconstructions. It is all part and parcel of musical research, a very important intellectual activity.
And yes, I admit I would be curious to see B's jottings on the shutters of his Baden holiday home. Wouldn't you?

[Peter]

Oh dear Headmaster, we are getting all hot under the collar, n'est pas? I post here a YouTube sketch which makes me think of you. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X3BJIAgkM8

Great! - Thought you might have chosen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEuVv...eature=related

[Peter]

Yes, Beethoven's final word was to supplant his original conception. The reconstruction is an (academic) exercise that remains fascinating, and I am curious to know why this does not excite a modicum of interest in you. If reconstructing the sketches throws light on Beethoven's compositional choices and thinking, where is the harm? And nobody is forcing you to listen to these reconstructions. It is all part and parcel of musical research, a very important intellectual activity.
And yes, I admit I would be curious to see B's jottings on the shutters of his Baden holiday home. Wouldn't you?

Didn't Nottebohm do this? How is a Cooper completion illuminating us anymore than that - I don't think for example that his 10th symphony realisation brings me any closer to what Beethoven would have actually written.

I'm curious why you're more fascinated by a reconstruction of a discarded Beethoven sketch than some of the many neglected Beethoven completed works which you may be unfamiliar with? How many of the following for example (out of many) are known to you?

Trio in G WoO.37
Duets for Piano and Mandolin WoO43/44
2 Preludes for fortepiano or Organ Op.39
March for piano duet Op.45 no.2
Duet from Leonore Hess 110 - 'Um in der Ehe froh zu leben'.
Tremate empi tremate Op.116
Duet for Soprano, Tenor and Orchestra 'Ne'giorni tuoi felici' WoO93
Aria 'O welch ein leben!' WoO91/1
Duet for Soprano, Tenor and Orchestra 'Ne'giorni tuoi felici' WoO93
In questa tomba oscura Woo133
Aria 'O welch ein leben!' WoO91/1
Sonata for piano (4 hands) in C major Op6
Kenst du das Land Op75/1
8 Variations on Gretry's Air "Une fievre brulante" G.184
Rondo for Piano in C Major WoO48
7 variations for piano on 'Kind willst du ruhig schlafen'
from Winter's opera 'Das unterbrochene Opferfest' G186
Aria - Primo Amore WoO92
Trio for English horn & 2 oboes Op.87
Prelude and Fugue for String Quartet in C major, Hess 31.

I could go on, but I'd better not!!

[Quijote]

Didn't Nottebohm do this? How is a Cooper completion illuminating us anymore than that - I don't think for example that his 10th symphony realisation brings me any closer to what Beethoven would have actually written.

I'm curious why you're more fascinated by a reconstruction of a discarded Beethoven sketch than some of the many neglected Beethoven completed works which you may be unfamiliar with? How many of the following for example (out of many) are known to you?

Trio in G WoO.37
Duets for Piano and Mandolin WoO43/44
2 Preludes for fortepiano or Organ Op.39
March for piano duet Op.45 no.2
Duet from Leonore Hess 110 - 'Um in der Ehe froh zu leben'.
Tremate empi tremate Op.116
Duet for Soprano, Tenor and Orchestra 'Ne'giorni tuoi felici' WoO93
Aria 'O welch ein leben!' WoO91/1
Duet for Soprano, Tenor and Orchestra 'Ne'giorni tuoi felici' WoO93
In questa tomba oscura Woo133
Aria 'O welch ein leben!' WoO91/1
Sonata for piano (4 hands) in C major Op6
Kenst du das Land Op75/1
8 Variations on Gretry's Air "Une fievre brulante" G.184
Rondo for Piano in C Major WoO48
7 variations for piano on 'Kind willst du ruhig schlafen'
from Winter's opera 'Das unterbrochene Opferfest' G186
Aria - Primo Amore WoO92
Trio for English horn & 2 oboes Op.87
Prelude and Fugue for String Quartet in C major, Hess 31.

I could go on, but I'd better not!!

Did Nottebohm attempt compositional reconstruction into performing versions of B's sketches? And what do rarely heard and neglected works by B tell us about his compositional choices? And clearly, Cooper's essay in giving us an aural spotlight on the "10th Symphony" sketches is nothing more than that. You prefer them (the sketches) to stay in the closet,then?

[Quijote]

And I'm sure that any art historian would not pass up on the chance of viewing rejected sketches by the masters. Why? Because it is interesting. I really don't see your problem here, Headmaster.

[Quijote]

And where did I write (or say) that I was more interested in the sketches than the less heard works you list above? You are projecting your own agenda, Headmaster.

[Quijote]

And a quick note to Baz Cooper (if ever he reads this forum) : keep it up!

[Peter]

And where did I write (or say) that I was more interested in the sketches than the less heard works you list above? You are projecting your own agenda, Headmaster.

You didn't and I made that clear myself, but I simply wondered if you have as much interest in them as the Cooper?

[Peter]

Did Nottebohm attempt compositional reconstruction into performing versions of B's sketches? And what do rarely heard and neglected works by B tell us about his compositional choices? And clearly, Cooper's essay in giving us an aural spotlight on the "10th Symphony" sketches is nothing more than that. You prefer them (the sketches) to stay in the closet,then?

Yes I think the '10th' would have been better not realised in the form it is presented in. Nottebohm's commentaries and scholarship do indeed provide valuable insight into Beethoven's compositional processes.

[Peter]

And I'm sure that any art historian would not pass up on the chance of viewing rejected sketches by the masters. Why? Because it is interesting. I really don't see your problem here, Headmaster.

I have no problem with the sketches, they are indeed interesting - it is the completion of them or the realising of them into a work by someone other than the composer!

[Chris]

As a listener, I admit, these completions can be tempting, especially when you have explored all the other works. But as a composer, I would be horrified if any such thing were made of my sketches, and I'm sure that I too would destroy any unused material.

[Quijote]

As a listener, I admit, these completions can be tempting, especially when you have explored all the other works. But as a composer, I would be horrified if any such thing were made of my sketches, and I'm sure that I too would destroy any unused material.

That is very simply and elegantly put, Chris. But it is beside the point. The sketches are extant, and we have an unmissable opportunity to exploit them (with care, with respect). I am simply curious to hear what Beethoven originally intended and to try to understand why he later discarded it. For the so-called Baz Cooper/Beethoven "10th", I appreciate the opportunity to hear an informed but speculative realization of a "what may have been but probably never would be" symphonic sketch that was in a nebulous, embryonic state. I have never accepted that it is in any shape or form the first movement of "Beethoven's 10th".

[Peter]

And where did I write (or say) that I was more interested in the sketches than the less heard works you list above? You are projecting your own agenda, Headmaster.

Can I take your silence to my previous response on this as confirmation of my 'agenda'? I suspect (and I will certainly eat humble pie if you say I'm wrong) that many of the pieces on that list (which itself is only a fraction of rarely performed B works) are unknown to you and that is why I'm irked by a sudden enthusiasm for a realisation of a discarded work.