String Quintet Op.4

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Your expected post duly arrived!

I never disappoint!

It apparently does not seem pointless to you that op16 is continuously compared to K452, to the formers disadvantage, for you have never questioned it here. I merely restore some balance to the equation.

Well I only know Op.16 in the piano quartet version, and the comparison there is with Mozart's k.493 and k.478 - the Mozart wins hands down.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Your expected post duly arrived!

I never disappoint!

It apparently does not seem pointless to you that op16 is continuously compared to K452, to the formers disadvantage, for you have never questioned it here. I merely restore some balance to the equation.

Well I only know Op.16 in the piano quartet version, and the comparison there is with Mozart's k.493 and k.478 - the Mozart wins hands down.
[/QUOTE

Only the Quartet Version!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????

Well, Mozart regarded K542 as his best work, I thus assume you regard 493 and 478 to be better? Regarding 493 and 478, they say that M wins 'hands down' comparing op16 (quintet) and k452...any they are wrong...need I say more... I prefer even B's juvenile fp quartets!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Only the Quartet Version!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????

Well, Mozart regarded K542 as his best work, I thus assume you regard 493 and 478 to be better? Regarding 493 and 478, they say that M wins 'hands down' comparing op16 (quintet) and k452...any they are wrong...need I say more... I prefer even B's juvenile fp quartets!!

Difficult to make sense of the confusion here - K542 is a piano trio (actually Mozart's greatest) and yes the piano quartets are greater works. I'm not aware of Mozart referring to this trio as his greatest work nor the quintet K452.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
Difficult to make sense of the confusion here - K542 is a piano trio (actually Mozart's greatest) and yes the piano quartets are greater works. I'm not aware of Mozart referring to this trio as his greatest work nor the quintet K452.

Mozart did regard his Piano and Wind Quintet, K.452 as "my greatest work", in a letter to his father, shortly after its completion. He did, of course, write many greater works subsequently.

Peter, I'm surprised that you haven't heard the Quintet, Op.16. I find it superior to the Mozart because Beethoven's piano writing gives it more independence from the winds.



[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 10-02-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Mozart did regard his Piano and Wind Quintet, K.452 as "my greatest work", in a letter to his father, shortly after its completion...

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 10-02-2001).]

I can confirm the above. When I wrote 542, I of course meant 452 !! I would be interested to know when M wrote k452.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can confirm the above. When I wrote 542, I of course meant 452 !! I would be interested to know when M wrote k452.

It dates from 1784, pre the great operas, last chamber works, Concertos and Symphonies so the remark is pretty meaningless.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:

Peter, I'm surprised that you haven't heard the Quintet, Op.16. I find it superior to the Mozart because Beethoven's piano writing gives it more independence from the winds.

Even I can't know everything! I don't know the Mozart quintet either so I can't compare - I take your word for it that the Beethoven is superior. I do however know the Mozart piano quartets k.493 and 478 and in my humble view they are superior to the quartet version of Op.16.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I do however know the Mozart piano quartets k.493 and 478 and in my humble view they are superior to the quartet version of Op.16.

It may not surprise you to hear that I have an 'authentic' rendition of the quartet version as well, which, if you could hear it, I suggest would force you to reassess the above remark. Even allowing for the fact that the op16 quartet is an arrangement and M's are genuine quartets!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
It dates from 1784, pre the great operas, last chamber works, Concertos and Symphonies so the remark is pretty meaningless.

My question was a loaded one about when this piece was written, for I knew the answer. You give the impression that K452 is some kind of novice composition when in fact M was 28 when he composed it! (B was 26 when he wrote op16) If Mozart didn't have his full faculties by this age then he never had them! Thus I suggest M's remark that K452 was 'his best' is significant, not meaningless.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
You give the impression that K452 is some kind of novice composition

I've done no such thing! I said I don't even know the work! Although there are many Mozart masterpieces pre 1784, his greatest works come later.

M was 28 when he composed it(B was 26 when he wrote op16)If Mozart didn't have his full faculties by this age then he never had them!


Does that apply to Beethoven as well?

Thus I suggest M's remark that K452 was 'his best' is significant, not meaningless.

Mozart made that remark to his father 10 days after it had been performed - composers are usually in love with their new baby! He was most enthusiastic about the performance itself and keen as always to please his father. Composers are often not the best judge of their own works unless you agree with Beethoven's unfavourable assessment of his own early works?



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:

Originally posted by Rod:
You give the impression that K452 is some kind of novice composition

I've done no such thing! I said I don't even know the work! Although there are many Mozart masterpieces pre 1784, his greatest works come later.

Then this puts you in a rather poor position regarding this particular argument! If you don't know it (most unusual for a M fan), how can you say he did better works later?

Originally posted by Peter:

M was 28 when he composed it(B was 26 when he wrote op16)If Mozart didn't have his full faculties by this age then he never had them!


Does that apply to Beethoven as well?

Absolutely, this was my whole point - B DID have his full faculties at this age in my opinion. The compositions up to and including op16 prove it. Though the impression often given by writers is that B was merely writing poor interpretations of Mozart at this time!

Originally posted by Peter:

Composers are often not the best judge of their own works unless you agree with Beethoven's unfavourable assessment of his own early works?

A favourable assessment by a composer is usually reliable in my opinion. Re B's poor opinion of his earlier works, I suggest this was influenced by their greater popularity with the public than some of his later efforts. B was always a little paranoid in this respect. Also this was a factor of B's extreme self-critisism regarding his music, which overall can be viewed as a positive influence on his creativity.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Then this puts you in a rather poor position regarding this particular argument! If you don't know it (most unusual for a M fan), how can you say he did better works later?

Why is it unusual? Mozart wrote over 600 works, I don't know them all! I don't know B's WoO47 sonatas but I think it's a fair bet to say he wrote better works later. I don't know all of Mozart's 41 Symphonies, but I know all the great ones and quite a few of the lesser ones as well. I don't need to know his Symphony no.7 to know that 41 is a greater work.

Absolutely, this was my whole point - B DID have his full faculties at this age in my opinion. The compositions up to and including op16 prove it. Though the impression often given by writers is that B was merely writing poor interpretations of Mozart at this time!

I don't think you can make a sensible case against Mozart's faculties. I don't think you can look at Mozart's compositions up to 1784 and say this is a man without his faculties!

A favourable assessment by a composer is usually reliable in my opinion.

So Beethoven's favourable opinion of Mozart as a composer is reliable then? Or was he only right when discussing Handel? Do you think Beethoven would have agreed with such a remark as "If Mozart didn't have his full faculties by this age then he never had them!"?

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-04-2001).]

[Rod]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:

Originally posted by Rod:
Then this puts you in a rather poor position regarding this particular argument! If you don't know it (most unusual for a M fan), how can you say he did better works later?

Why is it unusual? Mozart wrote over 600 works, I don't know them all! I don't know B's WoO47 sonatas but I think it's a fair bet to say he wrote better works later. I don't know all of Mozart's 41 Symphonies, but I know all the great ones and quite a few of the lesser ones as well. I don't need to know his Symphony no.7 to know that 41 is a greater work.

Well, I suggest you are in severe need of expanding your collection. B's WoO47 sonatas are even available on Naxos, so you have no excuse there. These are genuine juvenile works whereas K452 is beyond doubt a mature work.

Originally posted by Peter:

Absolutely, this was my whole point - B DID have his full faculties at this age in my opinion. The compositions up to and including op16 prove it. Though the impression often given by writers is that B was merely writing poor interpretations of Mozart at this time!

I don't think you can make a sensible case against Mozart's faculties. I don't think you can look at Mozart's compositions up to 1784 and say this is a man without his faculties!

I was making no case, the case against was implicit in your earlier remark. I say K452 was a mature work by M that he thought worthy of high praise, and I say B's comparable effort written at an earlier age is superior, contrary to popular opinion.

Originally posted by Peter:

A favourable assessment by a composer is usually reliable in my opinion.

So Beethoven's favourable opinion of Mozart as a composer is reliable then? Or was he only right when discussing Handel? Do you think Beethoven would have agreed with such a remark as "If Mozart didn't have his full faculties by this age then he never had them!"?

By reliable I meant when a favourable opinion is given, the composer believes it to be true. Thus indeed B believed the things he said about Mozart, when he said them. By default his earlier opinions of Mozart must have later been contradicted when Beethoven's ultimate favour turned towards Handel. My remark about M's faculties was not my opinion, but the position your own remarks seemed to present!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
I was making no case, the case against was implicit in your earlier remark. I say K452 was a mature work by M that he thought worthy of high praise, and I say B's comparable effort written at an earlier age is superior, contrary to popular opinion.

Even if B's work is superior contrary to popular opinion it doesn't mean K.452 is suddenly worthless or that Mozart was an idiot to have been proud of it. I have only stated that I consider K.493 and 478 to be superior to the quartet version of Op.16 as I am familiar with these works. I have made no comparison between the quintet version and K.452 as I don't know either! You may be right that B's quintet is superior, but why are you making such a point about this remark of Mozart's?


By reliable I meant when a favourable opinion is given, the composer believes it to be true. Thus indeed B believed the things he said about Mozart, when he said them. By default his earlier opinions of Mozart must have later been contradicted when Beethoven's ultimate favour turned towards Handel.

I don't regard this remark by B made in 1826 as an early opinion "I have always counted myself amongst the greatest admirers of Mozart and shall remain so until my dying breath."

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Even if B's work is superior contrary to popular opinion it doesn't mean K.452 is suddenly worthless or that Mozart was an idiot to have been proud of it. I have only stated that I consider K.493 and 478 to be superior to the quartet version of Op.16 as I am familiar with these works. I have made no comparison between the quintet version and K.452 as I don't know either! You may be right that B's quintet is superior, but why are you making such a point about this remark of Mozart's?

I didn't say it was worthless, I say B's is better than a work M rated extremely highly, yet B's work is constantly belittled in comparison to the M work. My ultimate point doesn't really concern M per se, but rather the continual underestimation of some of B's works. Your own remark stating that M's admiration of K452 was 'meaningless' I hold to be not the case.

Originally posted by Peter:

I don't regard this remark by B made in 1826 as an early opinion "I have always counted myself amongst the greatest admirers of Mozart and shall remain so until my dying breath."

I'm sure B believed these words, but compare them to what he said about Handel at the same time and even later - 'the greatest..', 'the most able..', 'here is the truth' etc. Yet I'm sure in the 1790's he would have been saying those things about Mozart.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin