String Quintet Op.4

[Peter]

This piece is now available on the rare Beethoven page.
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/selected.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
This piece is now available on the rare Beethoven page.
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/selected.html

For those not familiar with B's wind Octet (from which op4 is derived) this track the the finale, Presto. This recording it the only one of Op4 I am aware of, it's not even included in the DG Complete Beethoven Edition. All rather surprising considering B's lack of output in this genre. Whereas there are many recordings of the Octet.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
For those not familiar with B's wind Octet (from which op4 is derived) this track the the finale, Presto. This recording it the only one of Op4 I am aware of, it's not even included in the DG Complete Beethoven Edition. All rather surprising considering B's lack of output in this genre. Whereas there are many recordings of the Octet.

When B first revised the Octet in 1793 he originally intended to replace this finale with the Rondino WoO25, but subsequently changed his mind. The autograph score describes the work as a 'Parthia' not Octet.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

I'd never heard any of the Quintet version of Op.103 before. From what's on offer at your link, I think I'd probably prefer it to the wind arrangement. I don't think I can say this about any other subsequent arrangements of Beethoven's original concepts. Many thanks.

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I'd never heard any of the Quintet version of Op.103 before. From what's on offer at your link, I think I'd probably prefer it to the wind arrangement. I don't think I can say this about any other subsequent arrangements of Beethoven's original concepts. Many thanks.

Well, I would say piano quartet version of op16 is typically favoured over the original, as is the violin version of op11. But this is only because the originals are mis-understood. However most of the arrangements of B's works weren't B's, or he 're-arranged' others' efforts (as with op104). I have the Kreutzer played on string Quintet!! But not B's work, but a good effort, but not as good as the original!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I'd never heard any of the Quintet version of Op.103 before. From what's on offer at your link, I think I'd probably prefer it to the wind arrangement. I don't think I can say this about any other subsequent arrangements of Beethoven's original concepts. Many thanks.

I'm not sure I prefer this version - it seems to lose all the sparkle that is present in the original.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not sure I prefer this version - it seems to lose all the sparkle that is present in the original.

Well, it seems that op4 was B's own final word on the matter, seeing no need to publish the octet. One could say the original is a more spontaneous piece, whilst op4 is not typical Beethoven with its complex ammendments. It sounds very difficult to perform to me. Perhaps that's why it is neglected? The string sound is very metallic in this recording. On gut strings the whole effect would be transformed much for the better.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I would say piano quartet version of op16 is typically favoured over the original, as is the violin version of op11. But this is only because the originals are mis-understood. However most of the arrangements of B's works weren't B's, or he 're-arranged' others' efforts (as with op104). I have the Kreutzer played on string Quintet!! But not B's work, but a good effort, but not as good as the original!

Who is saying that the rather insubstantial violin version of the Clarinet Trio is better? And what's wrong with the original concept of Op.16? It seems to me that too many people compare the wind and piano Quintet unfavourably with
Mozart's, but Beethoven's stands on its own merits - All LvB borrowed from Mozart was the E flat key!

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Who is saying that the rather insubstantial violin version of the Clarinet Trio is better?

Where to begin!... It is the 'insubstantial' clarinet part that has been most critisised! Marion Scott, the (one time) well known English music commentator described the original as being 'near a dud'.

Originally posted by PDG:

And what's wrong with the original concept of Op.16? It seems to me that too many people compare the wind and piano Quintet unfavourably with Mozart's, but Beethoven's stands on its own merits - All LvB borrowed from Mozart was the E flat key!

I would say Beethoven's is superior to M's from what I've heard. On my period instrument recording with both, B's effort totally overshadows M's. I have great difficulty seeing what the fuss with M's piece is all about. I would say B borrowed a little more than the key. The general overall form of op16 is similar also, though B's vision is a larger scale one, more orchestral.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-30-2001).]

[Michael]

On a DGG website devoted to the Complete Beethoven Edition, one question asked was why Opus 4 was omitted. The unsatisfactory reply was that the compilers of the Edition decided on one definitive version of each work (which wasn't quite true as they included two versions of the Septet and the Violin Concerto). I am surprised that Op 103 was included over Opus 4 as the latter is not a new arrangement but a complete recomposition of the work and, in my opinion, far greater, but then, I'm a sucker for string quartets/quintets.
Vikram Seth's novel, "An Equal music" came out a couple of years ago. The plot centres around the members of a string quartet, and the opening chapters deal with the first violinist's tracking down of a rare recording of Beethoven's Opus 104 (an arrangement for string quartet of his piano trio, Opus 1 No. 3). He finally comes across an old vinyl record of the work on the Supraphon label played by the Suk Quartet (plus viola) and it has Opus 4 on the other side - the actual recording now featured on this site. The performance is excellent but the recording is an early digital one, and very shrill indeed. You certainly need a treble control on your amplifier if you want to listen to this.
In fact, it was as a result of the Seth novel that the Suk recordings were released on CD. I think there is only one other version of these works in the catalogue.

Michael

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:
I would say Beethoven's is superior to M's from what I've heard. On my period instrument recording with both, B's effort totally overshadows M's. I have great difficulty seeing what the fuss with M's piece is all about. I would say B borrowed a little more than the key. The general overall form of op16 is similar also, though B's vision is a larger scale one, more orchestral.

The Mozart and the Beethoven work are almost always paired off on CD, and in every case the sleeve note goes to great lengths to point out the superiority of the Mozart.
I have made every effort over many years to prove this to my own satisfaction - but the Beethoven just blows me away and the Mozart does nothing - and I like Mozart.
The fact that I consider Beethoven to be streets ahead of any musician who ever lived, has no bearing on my completely objective decision!

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
The Mozart and the Beethoven work are almost always paired off on CD, and in every case the sleeve note goes to great lengths to point out the superiority of the Mozart.
I have made every effort over many years to prove this to my own satisfaction - but the Beethoven just blows me away and the Mozart does nothing - and I like Mozart.
The fact that I consider Beethoven to be streets ahead of any musician who ever lived, has no bearing on my completely objective decision!

Michael

'First Period' Beethoven in general tends to be underestimated I believe. With regard to Mozart I think Beethoven is superior even in the earlier works, with comparable works written at a time when B was younger than M! One must not forget that at the age Mozart died (35) Beethoven had by then composed the Eroica, the Waldstein and the Appassionata, amongst many other masterpieces - music well beyond even M's best comparable efforts. Whereas these works of B by this age have never been surpassed, unless you consider B himself.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
'First Period' Beethoven in general tends to be underestimated I believe. With regard to Mozart I think Beethoven is superior even in the earlier works, with comparable works written at a time when B was younger than M! One must not forget that at the age Mozart died (35) Beethoven had by then composed the Eroica, the Waldstein and the Appassionata, amongst many other masterpieces - music well beyond even M's best comparable efforts. Whereas these works of B by this age have never been surpassed, unless you consider B himself.

I do agree that much of first period Beethoven is neglected - so far most of our rare Beethoven pieces have been from the first period works. The comparison with Mozart seems pointless to me - don't forget Beethoven had the example of these very Mozart works you dismiss so lightly as examples to build on. Mozart's really great achievement came in the 1780's the decade prior to B's first period works, and it includes some of the greatest Operas, Piano concertos and Symphonies in the repertoire - music that Beethoven learnt much from. That Beethoven built on this and in many ways surpassed even these works, doesn't in any way diminish Mozart - just as the great works of B's last period should not diminish his own early works.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I do agree that much of first period Beethoven is neglected - so far most of our rare Beethoven pieces have been from the first period works. The comparison with Mozart seems pointless to me - don't forget Beethoven had the example of these very Mozart works you dismiss so lightly as examples to build on. Mozart's really great achievement came in the 1780's the decade prior to B's first period works, and it includes some of the greatest Operas, Piano concertos and Symphonies in the repertoire - music that Beethoven learnt much from. That Beethoven built on this and in many ways surpassed even these works, doesn't in any way diminish Mozart - just as the great works of B's last period should not diminish his own early works.

Your expected post duly arrived! I do not diminish Mozart, I raise early Beethoven, of whom the status quo has given much less than is due. It apparently does not seem pointless to you that op16 is continuously compared to K452, to the formers disadvantage, for you have never questioned it here. I merely restore some balance to the equation.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
The performance is excellent but the recording is an early digital one, and very shrill indeed. You certainly need a treble control on your amplifier if you want to listen to this.
Michael

In my opinion it is not just the recording that is to blame, but the steel stringing and uncouth vibrato as well, in fact these things more so.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin