thoughts on Johanna Van Beethoven?

[Preston]

I think I spelled her name right, I apologize if not. I was wondering a couple of things.

- I have never seen a portrait of her and wondered if one existed?

- Why did Beethoven and apparently others think of her is not a remotely decent person?

- Didn't Beethoven leave his estate to her because he was worried Karl could not keep it properly? It seems I read this in Thayer?

[Peter]

Johanna Van Beethoven (nee Reiss) was accused (but not prosecuted) in 1804 of stealing from her parents. More seriously she was convicted in Dec 1811 of embezzlement having falsely reported as stolen a pearl necklace valued at 20,000 florins. She was sentenced to one year's imprisonment but this was reduced on the intervention of her husband (Carl) to one month's detention in police cells - in fact she served less than this. It was on the strength of this conviction that Beethoven sought to have Karl removed from his mother's influence with all the disastrous consequences that followed. Beethoven continued to blacken her name by relying on any malevolent gossip about her immorality that came his way. Beethoven would not have been pleased that one of his most personal and heartfelt documents - the Heiligenstadt Testament ended up in her hands!! In 1840 (short of funds as ever) she approached Liszt to arrange the sale of the document which didn't realise the price of 50 Guineas - however Liszt true to his generous nature made good the shortfall.

Beethoven did not leave his estate to Johanna - it was left entirely to his nephew Karl, who also inherited a substantial amount from his other uncle, Nikolaus Johann van Beethoven.

[Preston]

Thank you Peter. So based on what you wrote she was, well, not bad at all. Could it be that Beethoven, for some unknown reason, felt that it was almost his duty to raise Karl? Perhaps he became so fixated on the idea of having someone so close to him as a son?

[Peter]

Thank you Peter. So based on what you wrote she was, well, not bad at all. Could it be that Beethoven, for some unknown reason, felt that it was almost his duty to raise Karl? Perhaps he became so fixated on the idea of having someone so close to him as a son?

It depends what you mean by 'bad' - we all have good and bad in us. She didn't murder or abuse anyone so I would describe Johanna as just human! Beethoven if he wasn't Beethoven would simply be regarded now as a rather stern Victorian figure (slightly ahead of his time!). He expected far too much of people and was pretty unforgiving of any transgressions - yes I think he very much saw Karl as the son he never had and severing connections with Johanna was a way of him enforcing that delusion.

[Megan]

It depends what you mean by 'bad' - we all have good and bad in us. She didn't murder or abuse anyone so I would describe Johanna as just human! Beethoven if he wasn't Beethoven would simply be regarded now as a rather stern Victorian figure (slightly ahead of his time!). He expected far too much of people and was pretty unforgiving of any transgressions - yes I think he very much saw Karl as the son he never had and severing connections with Johanna was a way of him enforcing that delusion.

Well I am no angel, but I could never do what Johanna did bringing shame and embarrassment on her husband who was presumably of good social standing.

[Peter]

Well I am no angel, but I could never do what Johanna did bringing shame and embarrassment on her husband who was presumably of good social standing.

Well I'm not condoning embezzlement, only trying to put things in context - that she was guilty of that offence shouldn't have resulted in her son being taken from her and her name blackened in the most appalling way. She was also living in a time without social benefits and was constantly short of money.

[Preston]

It depends what you mean by 'bad' - we all have good and bad in us. She didn't murder or abuse anyone so I would describe Johanna as just human! Beethoven if he wasn't Beethoven would simply be regarded now as a rather stern Victorian figure (slightly ahead of his time!). He expected far too much of people and was pretty unforgiving of any transgressions - yes I think he very much saw Karl as the son he never had and severing connections with Johanna was a way of him enforcing that delusion.

That is kind of what I meant, that she was only human. So, when I said she was not "bad" I was just referring to the label that many have given her of being somekind of horridly terrible woman. Though, I really should research this some more.

What about a portrait, is there one?

[Peter]

That is kind of what I meant, that she was only human. So, when I said she was not "bad" I was just referring to the label that many have given her of being somekind of horridly terrible woman. Though, I really should research this some more.

What about a portrait, is there one?

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall seeing a photograph of her in old age?