Inspiration or Motivation?
I believe that beethoven may have inspired many with his music though, was Beethoven insired to create with such mastery or was he motivated by the negative or sometimes evil forces of power of his time (Leopold) If this is true then I believe that everyone holds the same innovative power to recreate the same vision that beethoven may have had with the exception of a choice to be right or wrong and not having to pay severe consequenses that may have existed in Beethovens and Mozarts times. The Eurocentric works of these great masters has already been performed for many generations with out much change. I believe that many new innovations in the area of classical compostion have yet to be created. The most likely type of innovator may not understand the cruelty of Beethovens time though is so inspired by his music and todays society. I am not a college educated individual and believe that to listen is to learn. I am a jazz musician that does not believe in improvisation. To create, one MUST innovate not improvise. Beethoven did'nt so why should any one else!
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When it comes to cruelty and evil I think the 20th & 21st centuries(so far) have exceeded that of the 18th and 19th centuries (bad enough as they were). I presume you are referring to the Emperor Leopold who hardly ranks as one of the world's greatest despots - vain and unjust maybe, but evil is a bit extreme.
I'm puzzled by your attitude towards improvisation which I thought was at the heart of Jazz! Beethoven did actually improvise and indeed he was more famous for this than his compositions when he first arrived in Vienna. Improvisation is a lost art and Beethoven was the supreme master of it.
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'Man know thyself'
[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-29-2001).]'Man know thyself' -
Please refer to the definition of inprovisation and campare to the word innovation. Jazz music involves application of a very complex set of rules in conjunction with the application of certain resources which include current events, personal feelings and inspiration picked up from others at that moment. Other resources include the chord voicings and rythms performed by the other musicians that support you at that moment. in the twenty first century ther are very few societies left that can produce an good product of any kind or create a new art form to please a wicked ruler. Give me ONE example of a citizen from a anarchistic society that has the creative genius to help the world and not destroy it. I don't believe it is possible to truthfully "inspire" destruction.
Joe
Originally posted by Peter:
When it comes to cruelty and evil I think the 20th & 21st centuries(so far) have exceeded that of the 18th and 19th centuries (bad enough as they were). I presume you are referring to the Emperor Leopold who hardly ranks as one of the world's greatest despots - vain and unjust maybe, but evil is a bit extreme.
I'm puzzled by your attitude towards improvisation which I thought was at the heart of Jazz! Beethoven did actually improvise and indeed he was more famous for this than his compositions when he first arrived in Vienna. Improvisation is a lost art and Beethoven was the supreme master of it.
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I am fully aware of the meaning of the two words Improvisation and Innovation - Beethoven's improvisations were also highly innovative - he was capable of being original on the spot. You asked for an example of someone from an anarchistic society with the creative genius to help the world - Shostakovich is a good example.Originally posted by jbruno1:
Please refer to the definition of inprovisation and campare to the word innovation. Jazz music involves application of a very complex set of rules in conjunction with the application of certain resources which include current events, personal feelings and inspiration picked up from others at that moment. Other resources include the chord voicings and rythms performed by the other musicians that support you at that moment. in the twenty first century ther are very few societies left that can produce an good product of any kind or create a new art form to please a wicked ruler. Give me ONE example of a citizen from a anarchistic society that has the creative genius to help the world and not destroy it. I don't believe it is possible to truthfully "inspire" destruction.
Joe
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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And which down-trodden peasant in particular was benefiting from Shostakovich's 'creative genius'?Originally posted by Peter:
You asked for an example of someone from an anarchistic society with the creative genius to help the world - Shostakovich is a good example.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Innovation in Jazz (if such a thing is possible) will not prevent it from being what it always has been, a lame and self-indulgent diversion. I suggest you graduate to some real music!Originally posted by jbruno1:
I believe that beethoven may have inspired many with his music though, was Beethoven insired to create with such mastery or was he motivated by the negative or sometimes evil forces of power of his time (Leopold) If this is true then I believe that everyone holds the same innovative power to recreate the same vision that beethoven may have had with the exception of a choice to be right or wrong and not having to pay severe consequenses that may have existed in Beethovens and Mozarts times. The Eurocentric works of these great masters has already been performed for many generations with out much change. I believe that many new innovations in the area of classical compostion have yet to be created. The most likely type of innovator may not understand the cruelty of Beethovens time though is so inspired by his music and todays society. I am not a college educated individual and believe that to listen is to learn. I am a jazz musician that does not believe in improvisation. To create, one MUST innovate not improvise. Beethoven did'nt so why should any one else!
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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I doubt a 'down trodden peasant' would have benefited from Beethoven either. I'm not quite sure what point the original post was trying to make as he said that Beethoven lived in an evil society, which I refute. He then claimed it was an impossibility for an artist to produce work to benefit the world, implying that Beethoven wasn't much cop!Originally posted by Rod:
And which down-trodden peasant in particular was benefiting from Shostakovich's 'creative genius'?
I therefore suggested a composer who really did live under an evil regime (Shostakovich), and even though he was forced to compromise his artistic style (in order to avoid Siberia) he still managed to produce some fine music (whether or not you personally like Shostakovich is irrelevant here - he isn't my favourite composer either, but I do admire some of his work).
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'Man know thyself'
[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-01-2001).]'Man know thyself'Comment
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Beethoven wasn't writing for down-trodden peasants, nor did he claim to be doing so. I got the impression this was not the case with S, based on your earlier remark.Originally posted by Peter:
I doubt a 'down trodden peasant' would have benefited from Beethoven either. I'm not quite sure what point the original post was trying to make as he said that Beethoven lived in an evil society, which I refute. He then claimed it was an impossibility for an artist to produce work to benefit the world, implying that Beethoven wasn't much cop!
I therefore suggested a composer who really did live under an evil regime (Shostakovich), and even though he was forced to compromise his artistic style (in order to avoid Siberia) he still managed to produce some fine music (whether or not you personally like Shostakovich is irrelevant here - he isn't my favourite composer either, but I do admire some of his work).
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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I'm not aware of having mentioned down trodden peasants until you brought them up!Originally posted by Rod:
Beethoven wasn't writing for down-trodden peasants, nor did he claim to be doing so. I got the impression this was not the case with S, based on your earlier remark.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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Ok, I am not convinced by the idea that artists conciously write 'for the world', or if they claim to do so, I'm suspicious.Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not aware of having mentioned down trodden peasants until you brought them up!
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Gentlemen,
I applaud you for your responses to my statement. I am co-founder of an organization dedicated to bridging music education and academics. It is our belief that innovation as an american form of expression goes along with Jazz as being the "only true American artform" (re: U.S. 100th Congress; House resolution #57) This nearly unknown bill that was passed in 1987 states that "jazz" not "jazz music" is the art form. After looking into the periods of different jazz styles, we can clearly see a corelation between jazz thinking and america's history of innovation which doesn't start with mass production, but instead starts with man achieving the impossible, "manned flight". We believe that the innovation of mass - production may involve a classical form of thinking whereas the resource applied was the need for efficiency in production with the outcome or result being a product that could be consumed or owned by just about anybody that had a job. The innovation of manned flight uses a resource that is almost not logical. This resource may could be "to go where no man has gone before with no known logical potential outcome. I look forward to your well thought out and highly intellectual response.
Where ever you are there you go!
JoeComment
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