Slow Third Movements in Symphonies 1774-1822

[Wyresider]

Does anyone know when and how Beethoven decided to put the slow movement of the ninth third?

It seems to have been very, very rare. Haydn debatedly put the slow movement third in symphony no.68 (?1774/5 pub ?1778), but Grove indicates that this ordering of the second and third movements of no.68 is disputed. He had put a slow movement third a couple of times before, but never did it subsequently. I have looked for other examples in Mozart (all the numbered symphonies via Wikipedia), Méhul (the four that he published), Beethoven and Ries, and a few others I have by Vanhal, the Stamitz brothers, Clementi, Weber and early Spohr. Not exhaustive, but a fair-sized sample, and I have found not one instance of a slow third movement between Haydn's disputed 68th and, 48 years later, in quick succession, Ries's 6th and Beethoven's 9th.

(Of course, after the 9th appeared, every man and his dog bar Schubert started putting slow movements third.)

Three possibilities: (1) slow third movements before 1822 were commoner than I realise; (2) Ries 7 and Beethoven 9 was an extraordinary co-incidence; (3) it was not a co-incidence.

If there was a connection, it could have been either way. Ries's 6th was in London but was reported in detail in Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung just before Beethoven started serious work on the ninth that autumn; on the other hand, he had been toying with ideas for the ninth for quite a while, and could have mentioned some of them in a letter to Ries before Ries finished the 6th?

As an aside -- Beethoven promised the dedication of the ninth to Ries, although in the event `realpolitik' sent it to the King of Prussia.

[Sorrano]

Bruckner did this in the 8th and 9th symphonies, but that is a long time after. Did Dvorak switch the inner movements, as well?

[Hofrat]

Bruckner did this in the 8th and 9th symphonies, but that is a long time after. Did Dvorak switch the inner movements, as well?

Dvorak was traditional in his symphonies and placed his slow movements 2nd. You would have to look into his chamber works where he might have broken tradition.

[Roehre]

Bruckner did this in the 8th and 9th symphonies, but that is a long time after. Did Dvorak switch the inner movements, as well?

The scherzo in Bruckner 2 was originally the 2nd mvt.
It was however swapped even before the premiere.
Dvorak didn't include a scherzo in his 3rd symphony (the most wagnerian of the 9).

Re Beethoven 9:
B used to sketch movements of works in the order he envisaged within the complete work.
It is interesting to have a look at the sketches for the Ninth, of which in this discussion the Landsberg 8/II sketchbook is by far the most important, as it contains the sketches for the slow mvt and the scherzo.

The slow mvt is started seriously (there are some preliminary sketches, many unused, for all presumed 4 mvts spread across earlier sketchbooks) on 5 pages numbered 37-41, and contimued on 21 pages numbered 99-100, 61-68, 53-60, 71-73 (the page numbers are not the order in which the pages were bound as B used the sketchbook - these pages are in the chronological order)

The scherzo however is begun at page 42, and sketches continue for 10 pages numbered 43-52.

Chronologically:
slow mvt / scherzo:
37-41 42-52 99-100, 61-68, 53-60, 71-73

From the viewpoint of Beethoven's habit to sketch mvts in the order in which he originally thinks they fit within the frame of the work, it means that at least he contemplated the order of movements in the Ninth being the traditional slow mvt - scherzo.

But at that time the problem how to create a suitable finale was on his mind already, which obviously may have influenced his sketching. Halfway in the slow movement sketches (in themselves they constitute a well rounded movement, basically not in need of any extension), he turns to the scherzo. After this being sketched nearly completely (including an unconscious [?] reference to the 2nd symphony's scherzo) B returns to the slow mvt and extends it to the double variation form as we now know it (and IMO changing the concept of this movement completely if we compare these with the sketches on pp.37-41).

[Wyresider]

I'd forgotten that Dvorak stuck rigorously to tradition -- nine times!. But Mendelssohn, Onslow, Schumann, Borodin, Parry, and many since, all swapped inner movements once Beethoven had given the OK.

From the lack of anything to the contrary in the replies, I guess that slow thirds really were pretty rare before that. Certainly, we can see (or hear) after the event that it gave the perfect solution to how to introduce Schiller -- he just wouldn't have been right on the back of a scherzo.

From Roehre's post with the sequence of the sketches. it would be really interesting to know the date of the the switch. I really am fascinated that B and Ries broke with an almost rock-solid long-standing tradition in the space of a few months. It CAN'T have been co-incidence? Or can it?

A secondary question -- why was it such a strong tradition for so long? ...

You would have to look into his chamber works where he might have broken tradition

The tradition seems weak, if it existed at all, in (four-movement) chamber music. Usually, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven put slow second, but basically they put the inner movements either way around as they felt like.

That has puzzled me -- the chamber flexibility makes sense, but why was there such rigidity in symphonies for such a long time?

[PDG]

The minuet 'slow' movement of Beethoven's 8th is also placed third as is his slightly later Archduke Trio, Op.97. Maybe it's because we're so accustomed to these works (plus the 9th), but try programming your cd player to play the middle movements of these works in a swapped around order, and they don't seem to make any sense at all.

[Peter]

I'd forgotten that Dvorak stuck rigorously to tradition -- nine times!. But Mendelssohn, Onslow, Schumann, Borodin, Parry, and many since, all swapped inner movements once Beethoven had given the OK.

From the lack of anything to the contrary in the replies, I guess that slow thirds really were pretty rare before that. Certainly, we can see (or hear) after the event that it gave the perfect solution to how to introduce Schiller -- he just wouldn't have been right on the back of a scherzo.

From Roehre's post with the sequence of the sketches. it would be really interesting to know the date of the the switch. I really am fascinated that B and Ries broke with an almost rock-solid long-standing tradition in the space of a few months. It CAN'T have been co-incidence? Or can it?

A secondary question -- why was it such a strong tradition for so long? ...
The tradition seems weak, if it existed at all, in (four-movement) chamber music. Usually, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven put slow second, but basically they put the inner movements either way around as they felt like.

That has puzzled me -- the chamber flexibility makes sense, but why was there such rigidity in symphonies for such a long time?

I can only think it was a tradition for so long because of the origins of the symphony itself: 3 movements quick -slow -quick. Then of course the minuet was inserted as an extra movement (or even replaced the finale).
There are of course examples of Haydn beginning a symphony with a slow movement.

[gprengel]

First essential Adagios in the 3rd place I know are Mozart's great string quintetts KV 515 and 516.

[Roehre]

From Roehre's post with the sequence of the sketches. it would be really interesting to know the date of the the switch. I really am fascinated that B and Ries broke with an almost rock-solid long-standing tradition in the space of a few months. It CAN'T have been co-incidence? Or can it?

The Landsberg 8/II cannot have been started to be used later than May 1823(but was used until after the completion of 9, and it contains the first sketches of op.127 too, dated June 1824)

[gprengel]

It is interesting to have a look at the sketches for the Ninth, of which in this discussion the Landsberg 8/II sketchbook is by far the most important, as it contains the sketches for the slow mvt and the scherzo.
...
Chronologically:
slow mvt / scherzo:
37-41 42-52 99-100, 61-68, 53-60, 71-73

Whow, this is really interesting, Roehre! Do you know these sketches? Are they available anywhere? I would love to study the progress of composing the 3rd movement ...

Gerd

[Rutradelusasa]

Not quite 1822, Neukomm's Symphony, published in 1823 (op.37) has a Menuett in second place.

[Roehre]

Whow, this is really interesting, Roehre! Do you know these sketches? Are they available anywhere? I would love to study the progress of composing the 3rd movement ...

Gerd

Hi Gerd,
Landsberg 8/II is in the collections of the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in Berlin.
AFAIK no facsimile exists, but Nottebohm has relatively extensively quoted from this sketchbook (Zweite Beethoveniana, pp.157-192 [1887]), though hardly from the slow mvt sketches .
I've discussed this in 2002 with the then director of the Beethovenhaus
Dr. Herttrich, using the Schmidt Skizzen Verzeichnis (Beethoven Jahrbuch 6, pp.7-128 [1969])

[Rutradelusasa]

Just a quick update to the thread, as I'm listening to this now and remembered to post, 4 of 6 quartets from Haydn's Op.33 have Adagios after the Scherzos (there are no menuetts in this set). The set is from 1781.