A World Without Beethoven

[Michael]

Food for thought. But I'm not particularly hungry.

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsde...ch-better-off/

[Chris]

When someone writes something that I enjoy more than Beethoven's 5th, 6th, 7th, or 9th symphonies, I'll listen to that instead. Or as well. But cream rises to the top, and I don't think it is out of some sense of tradition or automatic shunning of present music that the music of Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach is still alive. It's alive because people love it. And people love it because it is great. If there is a problem with new music gaining an audience, it isn't because the old great music is still being played so much as that the majority of the population is now indifferent to it and listens solely to popular music. It's hard for things to enter to the public mind when most of the public is not interested, so it's hard for any new piece to attain the status of Beethoven's 5th.

[Peter]

Incredible article that completely misses the point - so it's Beethoven's fault now is it that contemporary composers aren't reaching a wider audience? It's like telling the Italians to give up on pasta because they're missing out on burgers!

[Quijote]

When someone writes something that I enjoy more than Beethoven's 5th, 6th, 7th, or 9th symphonies, I'll listen to that instead. Or as well. But cream rises to the top, and I don't think it is out of some sense of tradition or automatic shunning of present music that the music of Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach is still alive. It's alive because people love it. And people love it because it is great. If there is a problem with new music gaining an audience, it isn't because the old great music is still being played so much as that the majority of the population is now indifferent to it and listens solely to popular music. It's hard for things to enter to the public mind when most of the public is not interested, so it's hard for any new piece to attain the status of Beethoven's 5th.

I sat today at the Lago di Garda and thought of your unoriginal metaphor ("cream rises to the top") as I viewed some unseemly detritus floating on this wonderful alpine lake. I take your point to an extent, but you should understand that there are indeed many "music lovers" who consult their newspapers' cultural events listings and select precisely the concerts that feature the known works and will pooh-pooh anything extraneous to their cultural radar. This is their right, and many a livelihood depends on it. As far as I can read in it (going for the subtext : the unwritten, the unsaid), the article is really trying to question concert programming as a general phenomenon, and surely unless people are exposed to other "musics" there will be little scope for informed choice. That said, "innovative" conductors such as Rattle have understood the problem and provide the "regular pasta" with some more "exotic meats" as side dishes (with or without cream sauce).
It is also true that your regular music lover will always be comparing any work to the canonical status of B's 5th or suchlike, blissfully (and unforgivably stupidly) ignorant of any other works that stand on either side of the (let's say, for convenience) 1650-1880 faultline.
As to the "regular fare" expected of and served up to the music loving masses, here's a link to an article about Kennedy blathering on about unauthentic Bach performance, something about needing more brown sauce or other condiment :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...iolinists-bach

[Quijote]

Incredible article that completely misses the point - so it's Beethoven's fault now is it that contemporary composers aren't reaching a wider audience? It's like telling the Italians to give up on pasta because they're missing out on burgers!

See my posting above. To take your food analogy at face value, it's more like suggesting to the Italians that they keep on eating the pasta and try a few other dishes too.

[Peter]

See my posting above. To take your food analogy at face value, it's more like suggesting to the Italians that they keep on eating the pasta and try a few other dishes too.

Well I see you're in Italy so I'm sure you'll find there is more than pasta on offer. Back to original point, the argument that Beethoven and standard classical fare is to blame for a smaller audience outside the 'comfort zone' is flawed because there is plenty of access to this music - Internet, concerts, recordings - never has a composer at anytime in history had such access to a mass audience.

[Quijote]

Well I see you're in Italy so I'm sure you'll find there is more than pasta on offer. Back to original point, the argument that Beethoven and standard classical fare is to blame for a smaller audience outside the 'comfort zone' is flawed because there is plenty of access to this music - Internet, concerts, recordings - never has a composer at anytime in history had such access to a mass audience.

No, this is not the point, as far as I read it. The choice is there, to be sure; but how many will "dip their toes" in waters that are seemingly less welcoming?
What also annoyed me about Chris's bland dictum ("Cream always rises to the top") was its uncritical assumption of how canonical status is conferred.

[Quijote]

[...] As to the "regular fare" expected of and served up to the music loving masses, here's a link to an article about Kennedy blathering on about unauthentic Bach performance, something about needing more brown sauce or other condiment :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...iolinists-bach

Always a mistake to quote oneself, but nobody has taken up the gauntlet : what I meant by "brown sauce or other condiment" was of course a veiled reference to Kennedy's mention of the ridiculous term "spirituality" in music.

[Quijote]

Food for thought. But I'm not particularly hungry.

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsde...ch-better-off/

Yes Michael, I notice you post these articles and then disappear. This is a fine "forum technique" and I am equally guilty of it. It is clearly necessary that to keep a forum alive one needs posters that have "something to say", however ridiculous it appears at times. However, at least I have the chutzpah to see it through and engage with those that agree/disagree with me (available time being the issue, as I am not retired). I do hope your appetite improves in the meantime. Bon digestion!
Amicalement,
Philippe

[Preston]

...the ridiculous term "spirituality" in music.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, though are you saying that you do not believe there is spirituality in any music since the beginning of music (give or take)? Also, are you saying that you do not believe music can be a spiritual thing?

[Quijote]

Perhaps I misunderstand you, though are you saying that you do not believe there is spirituality in any music since the beginning of music (give or take)? Also, are you saying that you do not believe music can be a spiritual thing?

No idea, Preston. Is it in the score?

[Quijote]

Or rather, when you place the score of the Hammerklavier in front of me and I begin to play it very badly and hammer my way through it very badly, will you find it "spiritual"? Or perhaps you will find it more "spiritual" when Brendel plays it? Or perhaps even when you "read" it yourself in your mind's ear? Is its "spirituality" inherent in the printed page?

[Quijote]

Or is "spirituality" dependent on technique?

[Quijote]

I mean, if you have the Prelude from one of JSB's 'cello Suites in front of you and you only play the guitar I imagine the "holy spirit" is pretty dead, so to speak?

[Quijote]

Or if not, this "spiritual" thingie is floating around in some sort of Platonic parallel ("ideal") universe just waiting to be tapped into?