A World Without Beethoven

[Quijote]

I really don't know. I just hear a lot of "talking heads" bandying about terms that strike me as meaningless.

[Quijote]

And just a quick thought : would someone from another culture (e.g. an illiterate Tamil, from south India) necessarily "hear" or "feel" the spirituality you refer to in WAM (western art music)? It can't be universal then, surely?

[Quijote]

So, if we accept my "argument" above, it is culturally-dependent, if not technically so. Hardly "spiritual", if I understand the term.

[Preston]

Philip your comments strike me as raving questions, much like mine probably strike you as foolish. Spirituality, imo, is a diverse and general term and it must be approached so. What I consider spirituality mostly relates to precise and/or pure feelings. I am a firm believer in good and evil - I have based a large portion of my life around it. I believe there is a lot of waste and sin - evil - in this world and that the good (whatever it may be?) is becoming less and less. I think you might see differently? Such as, denying the existence of "pure and sin" and taking an atheists stance?

Either way, yes I believe there was/is spiritual music written by spiritual people. What do you think about Beethoven's "Thank you from a convalescent to the Godhead"?

[Quijote]

May I continue? (Administrators, please delete all these postings if you consider them irrelevant). I spent a year in India some years ago, that country that so many Anglo Saxons consider a "spiritual" country. What rot! I met so many well-off cretins that were there to "discover themselves", to find some "meaning" to their lives, futilely searching for some "product" they called "spirituality". That was the point, they considered "spirituality" as a product that coud be somehow acquired (read "purchased") in a few days, weeks, or months. They visited monasteries in the Himalayas where monks would hold a low B (two octaves below middle C) for long lengths of time and were amazed. Oh yeah? Big deal. So who washed their robes, prepared their food and sluiced out their latrines?
And India is spiritual? A great majority of the population live in abject poverty, and think no further than what can fill their bellies on a given day. And children die in their dozens. Where is their notion of "spirituality"? I find the term so obscene as to be nauseous. And then you come along and ask me what I find (or not) to be spiritual in music.

[Quijote]

Michael is the poster who launched this thread called "A World Without Beethoven". Well, there is a whole load of "world" out there for whom there is indeed no Beethoven whatsoever, and even - even - if they hear him (the poor illiterate Tamil or Nepalese or whoever) by chance on some tourist's MP3 player or possibly their own sound system will hear a bunch of sound events (to reduce the phenomena to an absurd level, but a physically true one) that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Please, all of you, spare me this drivel.

[Sorrano]

Preston, in order to define what one might feel as spiritual in music or any other art or media, it would be useful for an agreement on what the term means. I might be moved deeply (is this spirituality?) upon reading a score (the music being played in my head) or while listening to it. Another person in the same situation will respond differently and not feel anything in particular. Hence, whatever spiritual experience that one obtains listening is more likely going to be a product of that person's own experiences and culture. Philip has excellent points and maybe we need to further define or label this term spirituality.

[Quijote]

And Michael, you are not particularly hungry. Good for you.

[Preston]

May I continue? (Administrators, please delete all these postings if you consider them irrelevant). I spent a year in India some years ago, that country that so many Anglo Saxons consider a "spiritual" country. What rot! I met so many well-off cretins that were there to "discover themselves", to find some "meaning" to their lives, futilely searching for some "product" they called "spirituality". That was the point, they considered "spirituality" as a product that coud be somehow acquired (read "purchased") in a few days, weeks, or months. They visited monasteries in the Himalayas where monks would hold a low B (two octaves below middle C) for long lengths of time and were amazed. Oh yeah? Big deal. So who washed their robes, prepared their food and sluiced out their latrines?
And India is spiritual? A great majority of the population live in abject poverty, and think no further than what can fill their bellies on a given day. And children die in their dozens. Where is their notion of "spirituality"? I find the term so obscene as to be nauseous. And then you come along and ask me what I find (or not) to be spiritual in music.

Yes, the world as a whole is very very very disturbing, I agree. That is the reason I have great trouble believing in an omnipotent being - but then I always tell myself that I do not know the answers and mysteries of divine powers, at all! Blind faith is what I wonder about, I don't understand it?

Though, the people you speak of, it sounds like are most likely, greed-filled, lust-filled, vain, and hateful people doing it as a cliche - not the great mystics and sages of the past, !

[Preston]

Preston, in order to define what one might feel as spiritual in music or any other art or media, it would be useful for an agreement on what the term means. I might be moved deeply (is this spirituality?) upon reading a score (the music being played in my head) or while listening to it. Another person in the same situation will respond differently and not feel anything in particular. Hence, whatever spiritual experience that one obtains listening is more likely going to be a product of that person's own experiences and culture. Philip has excellent points and maybe we need to further define or label this term spirituality.

I can't define spirituality, ! I believe that when one has one thought that provides them with a more enlightened thought that it is a spiritual thing. I guess one could say if a person was wholly spiritual they would have achieved Nirvana.

Really, I don't know how to properly define spirituality, I don't know if it can and if it was it would be a very diverse (and long, so long) definition, and anything but a "black and white" perception.

I believe that feelings play a large part in being spiritual. In fact, I believe that is the entire basis of spirituality - to have more pure feelings. Though the question is, what are purer feelings? What are sinful feelings? Etc.

[Preston]

And then you come along and ask me what I find (or not) to be spiritual in music.

Philip, you brought it up. You even quoted yourself to bring it back up in a more presentable way. So this is where I get confused?

I admit it seems there is absolutely no omnipotent being. Yes, the suffering in the world is as bad as it could be - like being torchered ruthlessly for life, locked in prisons for life, holes drilled in brains causing people (the same as you or I) to be completely gone and perhaps in great pain. This world is a madhouse, especially when looked at as a whole. Though I believe there are forces and magic in this world we cannot even begin to slightly comprehend.

That is only my opinion.

Anyway, I would like to say a prayer:
May the divine powers help us all? We need it oh so deeply, far more than we can ever know.

[Quijote]

So, if I may return to the title of this thread (A World Without Beethoven), I'm a lot calmer now, thank you. Gosh, I haven't gotten off my stool like that for a long time, so I must thank Michael for stirring up my own personal hornets' nest.
Anyway, if I may approach the subject from a more rational viewpoint, there are a couple of points I'd like to make.
One : Even in our own western society, there is a huge swathe of the population that has never experienced the "joys" of Beethoven. There is then, a large part of the "world" that is "without Beethoven". Does (or will) this change anything? No, I think, is the simple answer.
Two : Er, that's it. Thank you for your attention.

[Quijote]

Philip, you brought it up. You even quoted yourself to bring it back up in a more presentable way. So this is where I get confused?

Did I? Good Lord, I'm confused.

[Chris]

Yes, the suffering in the world is as bad as it could be...

Is it? I could imagine many ways it could be far, far worse. What other world is there for us to compare it to? The world is the world. There is good in it and there is bad in it. Let's not lose ourselves to negativity!

[Preston]

Is it? I could imagine many ways it could be far, far worse. What other world is there for us to compare it to? The world is the world. There is good in it and there is bad in it. Let's not lose ourselves to negativity!

I was referring to the individual life, kind of once it happens to one it happens to all - all for one and one for all. Though, this is too much for me and now to post something that I find comfort in on the GD forum, 8-).

Amen to not losing ourselves to negativity or horror, ! Quite frankly I cannot take anymore of it! And amen to peace and comfort!