Immortal Beloved - new theory!

[edward]

Has anyone read and assessed a new book published in the U.S. purporting to solve the mystery of LvB’ s Immortal Beloved? It has a long Introduction by the head of the Beethoven Centre in California, who is also the president of the American Beethoven Society, summarizing the background of the controversy. Publication details can be found by Googling “Scarecrow Press Walden Beethoven”, and the book can be purchased through “amazon.co.uk”

[Megan]

Has anyone read and assessed a new book published in the U.S. purporting to solve the mystery of LvB’ s Immortal Beloved? It has a long Introduction by the head of the Beethoven Centre in California, who is also the president of the American Beethoven Society, summarizing the background of the controversy. Publication details can be found by Googling “Scarecrow Press Walden Beethoven”, and the book can be purchased through “amazon.co.uk”

Thank you for sharing that with us Edward,
Are you the author?


http://www.scarecrowpress.com/Catalo...ata=0810877732

[Joy]

Very interesting topic Edward. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

[Peter]

Yes, nice to hear someone not accepting Solomon's theory as gospel - there are so many points against Antonie Brentano being the IB. It'll we interesting for me to revisit this topic after so long with a fresh approach and I don't mind a plug from the author on a relevant topic such as this!

[EternaLisa]

Has anyone read and assessed a new book published in the U.S. purporting to solve the mystery of LvB’ s Immortal Beloved?

A New theory? On "Betty" Brentano? Is there an updated version?

7. To whom did Beethoven write the famous loveletter?

We don't know, at least not (yet) for sure. Biographer Schindler was the first who tried to identify the mysterious lady. His choice was Giulietta Guicciardi, the girl to whom Beethoven had dedicated the Moonlight sonata. Later on biographer Thayer's choice was Therese Brunswick, Giulietta's cousin. Biographer Frimmel's choice was Magdalene Willmann, Unger's choice Bettina Brentano, Marek's choice Dorothea Ertmann, et cetera, et cetera. It's not easy to mention the name of a female friend of Beethoven's who has NOT been put on the list of candidates! These days Solomon is by far the most fashionable Beethoven biographer in the UK and the USA and his choice is Antonie Brentano, Bettina's sister-in-law. However, in Europe most biographers prefer Josephine Brunswick, Therese's sister, put forward by La Mara in the twenties, again in the fifties by Kaznelson and finally in the seventies and eighties by Goldschmidt and Tellenbach, lately also by Steblin. Another, highly unlikely candidate is Marie Erdödy, suggested by Steichen in the fifties and by Altman in 1996. Lately three new candidates were added to the list: Almerie Esterházy, put forward in October 2000, Barbara von Tschoffen, put forward in June 2002, and Maria Anna von Liechtenstein, put forward in late 2002. I give them little chance. Surprisingly in 2002 Walden did an heroic attempt to defend the candidacy of Bettina Brentano, already decades ago correctly (in my opinion) put aside. **I think that Josephine's chances are by far the best.

http://ademu.home.xs4all.nl/Beethoven/

I don't know who the author of the blog is, of course...appears (s)he **updated it very recently, however....

E

[terry]

God knows how I'd be delighted to know it at least! But until there isn't the smoking gun I can't believe it. Btw, I never liked Bettina, she even had some affair with Goethe who could be her father! Not the kind of introspective woman I would have thought with him. But who knows... my favourite is always Antonie.

Ah if there was today's technology: google map, a tom-tom, a smartphone call, and at last...

[EternaLisa]

God knows how I'd be delighted to know it at least! But until there isn't the smoking gun I can't believe it.

Ah if there was today's technology: google map, a tom-tom, a smartphone call, and at last...

Well, if nothing else, the millions shall be assured that the world will never want for speculation over the subject (meaning, of course....)

uhm, terry, there was one piece of technology available that B kept handy...

a resonance plate-now how far a mad scientist could possibly go in deploying that smart phone to "make that call" without blowing something up, like B's ear trumpet, and shocking him out of his own reality, is another matter (ooops).

big question: is it really worth finding out?

trying to stay on topic, though

RE: Ms Brentano - just like all other famous people, someone is going to write a story about-but, exactly how true are the facts (just something else to speculate over, as usual...)

E

[terry]

RE: Ms Brentano - just like all other famous people, someone is going to write a story about-but, exactly how true are the facts (just something else to speculate over, as usual...)

Who?
As a knowledge to you all, an Italian writer has already finished a long novel about B's life, from the point of view of himself as Schindler, but not exactly him, another Master's assistant. Very well written and soon published, pity you won't read it until it's translated. In the novel he "votes" for Josephine, and Minona too.. who offers more?

[EternaLisa]

Very well written and soon published, pity you won't read it until it's translated. In the novel he "votes" for Josephine, and Minona too.. who offers more?

Well, terry, I concede if it's "very well translated" into English-I could be enticed to "sample it", at least. Sometimes little miracles are like pop-up storms with me. I don't know about anyone else but, I don't mind a genuinely intriguing mystery that has me squarely on the edge of my seat now and then-but, it has to have my imagination in its grip right from the start, or I lose interest really fast.

I must write this:

Personally I do get somewhat amused and have to laugh out loud, however, with all this "voting processes", and "who prefers who", etc etc in regards to whom is this person B wrote in reference to...it's like it's some kind of sport interested members of the "critical masses" like to engage in--like ping-pong, you know? Batting the subjects back and forth, LOL. The majority, although spoken, doesn't correctly determine the truth of the matter. There's no one after :udwig who is going to be any real authority on this subject other than himself, and that's not "a fact", that's "the truth".

And, when did "they" (not sure whom) start referring to the numerous named potential recipients as "candidates" for this game? There are no "candidates". There is only one, who is not a "candidate". This ain't some sort of competition, wherein a "preferred" will win or garner any sort of prestigous position to be acknowledged for it. Only one stands alone in the mind of B. (I suppose I'm getting pelted with melons, in the minds of many, already now)

No doubt, curiosity of this matter will always eat at those who engage themselves to the subject of who was in mind during the writing of the letter to "solve this mystery", simply because of what is left long after everything else essential to it, fell away-one piece of evidence=a document written by a soul once known as Ludwig Van Beethoven. That's it. That's all you're gonna get. Curiously enough, IMHO, were there more obvious to Ludwig specific pieces of evidence left undestroyed by Ludwig in relation to the one piece he did not destroy for his own reason, then I personally don't think that folks would be so driven to try jigsawing one or more events [edited to add], timeframes, places, and people [done editing] to that event of the writing of it, which has created such great "variation on a theme of mayhem/confusion" between all curious minded parties. What a genuine riot it has turned out to be, thusfar eh? Fun fun!

The imagination being unlimited the only absolute here, indulge it then, if one so desires.

But I guess that there being only one who is not a "candidate", this is the only sane approach peeps have in arguing the point amongst themselves, with such a 'controversial' subject.

there are 'the facts'; and then, gracious ladies and fine gentlemen, there is "the truth".

gosh--what a horrific essay that turned out to be--my sincere apologies to you all
E

[JohnSpecialK]

Beethoven's "Letter to his Immortal Beloved", as it was to be called, did NOT name an addressee. Why? Answering this question - why it was kept secret (and why his love to Josephine was ALWAYS kept secret) - is solving half the "riddle". First, this Letter was NOT to his "Immortal Beloved" - it started with "MY ANGEL". And who might that be??? There were at least 15 similar letters before that to J (between 1804 and 1809/10), and whom did he call, repeatedly, his "ANGEL"? His "ONLY BELOVED"? His "EVERYTHING"? To whom did he pledge "ETERNAL" faithfulness? Is it really conceivable that anyone else but J could have been addressed like this in 1812 - unless one presupposes that LvB was insincere, a liar? He, the moralist? Of all the "candidates" that have been put forward in many wild and lurid speculations, only Antonie was actually in Prague at the time, from this alone Bettina and dozens others can safely be excluded (even as hypothetical possibilities). With Antonie, Beethoven certainly had a warm friendship (as everyone knew, esp. her husband). But such an outburst to her, the cloister-educated?

[EternaLisa]

Beethoven's "Letter to his Immortal Beloved", as it was to be called, did NOT name an addressee. Why? Answering this question - why it was kept secret (and why his love to Josephine was ALWAYS kept secret) - is solving half the "riddle". First, this Letter was NOT to his "Immortal Beloved" - it started with "MY ANGEL". And who might that be??? There were at least 15 similar letters before that to J (between 1804 and 1809/10), and whom did he call, repeatedly, his "ANGEL"? His "ONLY BELOVED"? His "EVERYTHING"? To whom did he pledge "ETERNAL" faithfulness? Is it really conceivable that anyone else but J could have been addressed like this in 1812 - unless one presupposes that LvB was insincere, a liar? He, the moralist? Of all the "candidates" that have been put forward in many wild and lurid speculations, only Antonie was actually in Prague at the time, from this alone Bettina and dozens others can safely be excluded (even as hypothetical possibilities). With Antonie, Beethoven certainly had a warm friendship (as everyone knew, esp. her husband). But such an outburst to her, the cloister-educated?

safe assumptions, yes. Even if all the ducks are lined up square and proper, one brick wall still remains forever in tact:

No one knows for absolute, 100 percent certain, without a doubt, except Beethoven. The trade-off however, is that the speculations and theories can be indefinately exchanged, even after the cows have come home. Theories, the best of and the worst of: will remain: in theory (nothing changes).

Onward with the debate, then

xoxoxox

E

[Preston]

Beethoven's "Letter to his Immortal Beloved", as it was to be called, did NOT name an addressee. Why? Answering this question - why it was kept secret (and why his love to Josephine was ALWAYS kept secret) - is solving half the "riddle". First, this Letter was NOT to his "Immortal Beloved" - it started with "MY ANGEL". And who might that be??? There were at least 15 similar letters before that to J (between 1804 and 1809/10), and whom did he call, repeatedly, his "ANGEL"? His "ONLY BELOVED"? His "EVERYTHING"? To whom did he pledge "ETERNAL" faithfulness? Is it really conceivable that anyone else but J could have been addressed like this in 1812 - unless one presupposes that LvB was insincere, a liar? He, the moralist? Of all the "candidates" that have been put forward in many wild and lurid speculations, only Antonie was actually in Prague at the time, from this alone Bettina and dozens others can safely be excluded (even as hypothetical possibilities). With Antonie, Beethoven certainly had a warm friendship (as everyone knew, esp. her husband). But such an outburst to her, the cloister-educated?

I do not have that much interest in the immortal beloved mysteries, thoughts, ideas, etc. And have not studied as I would like to have. I think you raise some interesting ideas. I imagine that we will never know who the "immortal beloved" is - though, I do not know that for sure. I propose Beethoven was insincere, I believe lying can be necessary at times, and a 'true' moralist isn't a "goody-two-shoes" - quite the opposite, imo. There was a thread a while ago where it was purposed that Beethoven had a daughter - which if anyone wanted to know for sure if he had a daughter then test their hairs for DNA - though I believe that there are things that are not meant to be known about Beethoven's life - because it is his life. How many people want people in their business not many - but so many will do anything, even to extremes - to get in Beethoven's business - I have, I think, and if I did I am disgusted I think. I believe that if someone is meant to know - they will - if they are not meant to know - they won't. I remember a poster named Cetto said they knew the IB letters were written in 1812 because of the paper - it was tested through forensics, etc. - I don't know if I believe that - perhaps the test are incorrect, perhaps they should release solid proof of everything about the paper, the tests, etc.?

[Peter]

Beethoven's "Letter to his Immortal Beloved", as it was to be called, did NOT name an addressee. Why? Answering this question - why it was kept secret (and why his love to Josephine was ALWAYS kept secret) - is solving half the "riddle". First, this Letter was NOT to his "Immortal Beloved" - it started with "MY ANGEL". And who might that be??? There were at least 15 similar letters before that to J (between 1804 and 1809/10), and whom did he call, repeatedly, his "ANGEL"? His "ONLY BELOVED"? His "EVERYTHING"? To whom did he pledge "ETERNAL" faithfulness? Is it really conceivable that anyone else but J could have been addressed like this in 1812 - unless one presupposes that LvB was insincere, a liar? He, the moralist? Of all the "candidates" that have been put forward in many wild and lurid speculations, only Antonie was actually in Prague at the time, from this alone Bettina and dozens others can safely be excluded (even as hypothetical possibilities). With Antonie, Beethoven certainly had a warm friendship (as everyone knew, esp. her husband). But such an outburst to her, the cloister-educated?

I have always favoured Josephine as the likely candidate - Antonie Brentano it simply cannot be.

[Roehre]

I have always favoured Josephine as the likely candidate - Antonie Brentano it simply cannot be.

for me it's either or.

as to mentioning the addressee at the very beginning/the top of the letter: it depends also on the fact whether these letters have been sent, and if so: how.

Normally letters were sent by folding them, sealing them and putting the addressee's name and address on the letter itself. The letters don't show any sign of being treated this way, for a start don't show any postal signs, marks or stamps ("rubber" stamps that is, post stamps were invented in the 1840s).

But that's not a proof they haven't been sent, as quite a lot of B's correspondence doesn't show any signs of being sent, though they must have been so, as the addressee acknowledges them.

A reason for not being folded, sealed and marked might be, that we are not talking about one letter, but actually three different pieces of paper, in two sizes. These would be sent put into an envelope, a cover of some kind, sealed, and adressed. The addressee would just have thrown it, and the cover would disappear from history.

The name of the adressee therefore would have been known to her as it was placed on that cover, and no name was necessary to be heading the first of the letters (or -for that matter- any of them).

Leaves open the possibillity that B didn't send the letters at all.

[Peter]

for me it's either or.

as to mentioning the addressee at the very beginning/the top of the letter: it depends also on the fact whether these letters have been sent, and if so: how.

Normally letters were sent by folding them, sealing them and putting the addressee's name and address on the letter itself. The letters don't show any sign of being treated this way, for a start don't show any postal signs, marks or stamps ("rubber" stamps that is, post stamps were invented in the 1840s).

But that's not a proof they haven't been sent, as quite a lot of B's correspondence doesn't show any signs of being sent, though they must have been so, as the addressee acknowledges them.

A reason for not being folded, sealed and marked might be, that we are not talking about one letter, but actually three different pieces of paper, in two sizes. These would be sent put into an envelope, a cover of some kind, sealed, and adressed. The addressee would just have thrown it, and the cover would disappear from history.

The name of the adressee therefore would have been known to her as it was placed on that cover, and no name was necessary to be heading the first of the letters (or -for that matter- any of them).

Leaves open the possibillity that B didn't send the letters at all.

I suspect they were sent and then returned at a later date. There is a sort of impulsiveness to them and Beethoven is obviously having to calm a rather agitated woman - the most likely candidate being Josephine because of the disastrous state of her marriage. In the case of Antonie, the argument against her being the Immortal beloved is that Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife? Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous and betraying his good friend Franz?