Beethoven alive today

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
I think that, under the circumstances, the finale of Beethoven's Ninth was an absolute necessity, though it suffered from the absence of the cumulative power of the three preceding movements. Leonard Slatkin admitted, at the end of the night, that it was not the programme that he wanted to perform - but it was necessary.
Rod gave up during the "Alla marcia" section - he should have waited for the heart of the finale, the "Seid umschlungen, Millionem" - transcendent music that may never be performed to everyone's satisfaction at the best of times, let alone under the trying emotional conditions of last Saturday night.
I am fully aware that it is easy for me to write this in a country that is not, at the moment, under attack (although we are not strangers to terrorism) but it seems to me that if the performers and audience at the Proms wished to send out a message of despair, then the finale of Tchaikovsky's Sixth would have been an ideal choice.
Beethoven's Ninth - with its hard-won spiritual "joy" - gave the proper answer to those heartless bastards who murdered so many innocent people.
(I think my profanity is justified).

Michael

Thank you Michael for expressing it so well!
The whole point of the 9th is overcoming the terrible things that happen and providing a vision of hope and love - exactly what is needed at a time like this. It is a triumph of good over evil - what could be more appropiate?

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Susan:
Excuse my cultural ineptness guys, but what the heck is the "Proms"??

Susan

The Promenade concerts (proms) are a series of concerts performed in the Royal Albert Hall in London that run for 2 months every year and have done for over 100 years when they were started by Sir Henry Wood. Artists and orchestras from all over the world come to perform - the conductor at the last night this year was the US's own Leonard Slatkin.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
You should have watched it yourself Peter, at least I did that.

Who said I didn't watch it?

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
I have to agree. To me the 9th Finale was not appropriate to what has happened over here.
The 9th signifies triumph and joy not tragedy and destruction. They should have kept that for when we win this upcoming war.

Joy

You're getting a one-sided picture here Joy. Coincidentally Leonard Slatkin was the conductor on this occasion. He began by giving a very moving speech. 2 minutes silence was observed, then Barber's adagio followed - he requested there should be no applause (but inevitably a few spoiled this). Then we had the very moving Spirituals from Tippet's 'A child of our time'. Then at the end the 9th finale was performed as a symbol of the final triumph of good over evil. I found the whole thing very moving. What could be more comforting than the word's from Schiller - 'Oh ye millions, I embrace thee - this kiss is for the whole world'.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
I despair, then the finale of Tchaikovsky's Sixth would have been an ideal choice.
Beethoven's Ninth - with its hard-won spiritual "joy" - gave the proper answer to those heartless bastards who murdered so many innocent people.
(I think my profanity is justified).

Michael

I wasn't pointing in the direction of Tchaikovsky! I was thinking more along the lines of Handel! Perhaps the 'Lamentations of the Isrealites upon the Death of Joseph' from 'Israel in Egypt', but I guess that would be insensitive to the fundamentalists we harbour in the UK and who openly support, on TV!, what happened in the US, and whom we naively protect in the name of free speech and political correctness.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You're getting a one-sided picture here Joy. Coincidentally Leonard Slatkin was the conductor on this occasion. He began by giving a very moving speech. 2 minutes silence was observed, then Barber's adagio followed - he requested there should be no applause (but inevitably a few spoiled this). Then we had the very moving Spirituals from Tippet's 'A child of our time'. Then at the end the 9th finale was performed as a symbol of the final triumph of good over evil. I found the whole thing very moving. What could be more comforting than the word's from Schiller - 'Oh ye millions, I embrace thee - this kiss is for the whole world'.

Schiller's Ode, to a large extent, is a one sided picture. It's about Joy and all its elements. I don't regard the Ode itself as a triumph of good over evil. What element of this that exists in the 9th are removed when the finale is played on its own. This is not the time for these joyfull sentiments, its too early. Nobody loves this piece more than me but I got no enjoyment on that night.

I wouldn't chastise those who clapped too much, you get a lot of foreigners at these events who may not have understood, or because the Hall is enormous, they may not have heard the request for silence.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Schiller's Ode, to a large extent, is a one sided picture. It's about Joy and all its elements. I don't regard the Ode itself as a triumph of good over evil. What element of this that exists in the 9th are removed when the finale is played on its own. This is not the time for these joyfull sentiments, its too early. Nobody loves this piece more than me but I got no enjoyment on that night.

I wouldn't chastise those who clapped too much, you get a lot of foreigners at these events who may not have understood, or because the Hall is enormous, they may not have heard the request for silence.

I think it is a question of how you interpret it - the Barber and the Tippett dealt with the grief and despair whereas the Beethoven offered hope and the certainty that no matter what adversity we will overcome it. After such tragedy and all the terrible pictures that we have witnessed on our screens, we have to have a symbol of hope.

You're right of course about the many different nationalities present at the last night - I'm sure many didn't hear or understand the request for no applause.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think it is a question of how you interpret it - the Barber and the Tippett dealt with the grief and despair whereas the Beethoven offered hope and the certainty that no matter what adversity we will overcome it. After such tragedy and all the terrible pictures that we have witnessed on our screens, we have to have a symbol of hope.

If this was some kind of accident it would be somewhat different, but it is the beginning of something that is going to be long and difficult to resolve. The Ode, as presented by Beethoven, profound as it is, is largely a festive piece, the troubles already dealt with in the first movement. Thus its effect as a stand alone piece is rather too jolly for this occasion, for me at least. There are pieces that have an air of solemnity that offer hope as well, but 'Turkish intruments' were out of place here. This piece potentially could almost have been a one for the traditional Last Night (were the sentiments of this event more about world unity and less about harking back to the days of Empire)!!! I am aware that in the scheme of things all this may seem trivial, but it is not the place here to delve into the deeper political ramifications, I just think they should have thought more about the programme. I presume lack of time prevented them from presenting a more ideal line-up. The positive element in all this is that, when the chips are down, the musical world instinctively turns to Beethoven for guidance. Pitty the musical world doesn't give him such consideration under normal conditions. Had B written a more solemn large scale (and I assume it would have had to be secular) piece, on a par with the Ode, I bet your bottom dollar they would have played that instead.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:
-The positive element in all this is that, when the chips are down, the musical world instinctively turns to Beethoven for guidance. Pitty the musical world doesn't give him such consideration under normal conditions.
[/B]

I agree with you on this, Rod. Our "classical" radio station, "Lyric FM" has a drive-time programme which doesn't feature much Beethoven but loads of Mozart, Schumann, Bach, etc. On the day after the attack, the presenter opened with the funeral march from the A flat piano sonata, and continued for a further twenty minutes with Beethoven.
You have just used the exact phrase I said to my wife during the week: when the chips are down only Beethoven will do. (Musically speaking).

Michael

[Joy]

Last night on my classical radio station they played The Proms Concert in its entirety, at least I think it was in its entirety it started out with Barber adagio, 3 spirituals from the oratorio 'A Child of our Time' by
Tippett, and then 'Ode to Joy'. Is that unusual to have an American conductor at the last night of The proms or did they just do that beacause of the occasion?I did hear the conductor's speech and moment of silence, the whole thing. At the end the announcer read from one audience member who posted a message on The Proms forum: "Thank you for your sensitive and moving program. It was not funereal as some had said. It contained strength and hope for the future of humanity despite the efforts of evil to thwart us."

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Last night on my classical radio station they played The Proms Concert in its entirety, at least I think it was in its entirety it started out with Barber adagio, 3 spirituals from the oratorio 'A Child of our Time' by
Tippett, and then 'Ode to Joy'. Is that unusual to have an American conductor at the last night of The proms or did they just do that beacause of the occasion?I did hear the conductor's speech and moment of silence, the whole thing. At the end the announcer read from one audience member who posted a message on The Proms forum: "Thank you for your sensitive and moving program. It was not funereal as some had said. It contained strength and hope for the future of humanity despite the efforts of evil to thwart us."

I'm pleased you were able to hear it Joy - I think under the circumstances it was a very moving program - you heard the 2nd half of the concert. 40,000 people were watching the concert live on screens in Hyde park and it was very moving to see all those people observing the few minutes silence. The concert was also broadcast live round the world to millions. Of course it's possible to argue that perhaps such and such a piece would have been more appropiate, but I feel certain they included the Ode as a symbol of hope.

I think Leonard Slatkin is one of the first American conductors to conduct the last night of the proms and he was appointed before the atrocity - he would have been expecting to conduct the traditional last night which includes such things as Land of Hope and Glory, Rule Britannia. He will be conducting at next years last night as well.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm pleased you were able to hear it Joy - I think under the circumstances it was a very moving program - you heard the 2nd half of the concert. 40,000 people were watching the concert live on screens in Hyde park and it was very moving to see all those people observing the few minutes silence. The concert was also broadcast live round the world to millions. Of course it's possible to argue that perhaps such and such a piece would have been more appropiate, but I feel certain they included the Ode as a symbol of hope.

I think Leonard Slatkin is one of the first American conductors to conduct the last night of the proms and he was appointed before the atrocity - he would have been expecting to conduct the traditional last night which includes such things as Land of Hope and Glory, Rule Britannia. He will be conducting at next years last night as well.

Thanks for getting me up to date on that, Peter. I'm sure it was a very moving sight to watch all 40,000 observe a moment of silence.
I saw on TV from around the world moments of silence that everyone was observing and it too was very moving. What was included in the first half of the program?

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Thanks for getting me up to date on that, Peter. I'm sure it was a very moving sight to watch all 40,000 observe a moment of silence.
I saw on TV from around the world moments of silence that everyone was observing and it too was very moving. What was included in the first half of the program?

Joy

The first half opened with the American then the British national anthems. They then played the overture to Verdi's la Forza Destino, followed by something by Gerald Finzi and 5 French songs by someone I don't know as I couldn't understand the presenter's accent!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


I think Leonard Slatkin is one of the first American conductors to conduct the last night of the proms and he was appointed before the atrocity - he would have been expecting to conduct the traditional last night which includes such things as Land of Hope and Glory, Rule Britannia. He will be conducting at next years last night as well.

Yes, and if they put one over the fanatics by then, just you watch all the flag waving crap return next year, ten-fold, and Slatkin will have belittled himself. Then you will understand my contempt.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes, and if they put one over the fanatics by then, just you watch all the flag waving crap return next year, ten-fold, and Slatkin will have belittled himself. Then you will understand my contempt.

I do understand your contempt for the whole last night concept, but it doesn't apply on this occasion. Of course if we're all still here next year the last night of the proms will probably overdose more than usual on Elgar's poor old pomp and circumstance!

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'Man know thyself'