Contemporary Classical music

[Peter]

I realise that past debates on this have been rather heated (and consequently not really productive) and in opening this special thread on the topic I would like to invite all those who are obviously passionate about it to offer their recommendations and suggestions to those of us who have problems with contemporary and avant-garde music - how would you go about widening the audience for Contemporary music, who are the greats of today and what works would you say were essential listening? Where should one start so as not to be put off immediately? Difficult to answer I'm sure but I know there are members here with a great deal of knowledge on the subject who I hope will welcome an opportunity to discuss this in a more rational light that I admit myself hitherto has been lacking. Throughout musical history there have been landmark works such as the Eroica or the Rite of Spring - are there any other such works from the last 50 years? Roehre provides us with an incredible selection of pieces and I'd especially welcome some of his favourites! I did try some Xenakis today and quite liked a certain percussion work!

[Sorrano]

The first thing in approaching the avant-garde is to consider that maybe it isn't all bad. A thread like this can go a long ways in steering away negative connotations.

[Roehre]

There was a time that I semi-seriously defended a stand that music history started after 1905 (von Webern's String quartet on a motto by Jakob Boehme) and reluctantly had to admit that Beethoven (one of my absolute favourites btw) might be an interesting point of departure as well

But on a more serious note: imo there is no fundamental difference between disliking classical music in general because "I don't like it"/"I don't understand it"/"that's for insiders and therefore very elitist" and liking classical music, but disliking 20th and 21st C music because "I don't like it"/"I don't understand it"/"that's for insiders, too difficult for me".

You cannot discuss taste, but everybody can acquire it or develop one.

Open ears and an open mind are very helpful for a start, but there have got to be some in-roads into this territory for those really interested.
Sometimes it is just one work - that happened to me: my love for classical music was triggered by a performance on the tele of Leonore III in december 1970, my interest and love for 20C repertoire by just one performance of Ives' 4th symphony and Webern's symphony, on one July day in 1976.

One in-road into 20C repertoire:
Beethoven opus 131 - Schönberg string quartet no.1 op.7 - Bartok string quartet no.3 (or.5) - Ligeti string quartet no.1 - Berio sincronie

another one:
Beethoven continental folksong arrangements - Berio Folksongs - Berio Rendering - Berio Sinfonia

or:
Mahler Antonius von Padua fischpredigt (piano-version) - ditto (orchestral version) - Mahler symphony no.2 Scherzo - Berio sinfonia mvt.4

or:
Bach Motets - da Vittoria Requiem - Tallis Spem in alium - Martin Mass - Stravinsky Mass - Stravinsky threni - Webern Cantata 1

or:
Schubert String quartet "Death and maiden" - Crumb Black Angels

or:
Liszt hungarian Rhapsodies (or piano concerto no.1) - Bartok Rhapsody for piano and orchestra opus 1 - Bartok piano concerto no.3 - Bartok piano concerto no.1 - Stravinsky piano concerto - Berg Chamber concerto

[Preston]

I don't know if this is getting off-topic or not? Though, I tell you that Pink Floyd's album The Wall is great music for the modern age. In general, it is not the Pastoral it is more like the 5th. I bring this up because if you have not seen the movie I think it would be worthwhile.

(entire movie) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxNM7j_ppHI

[Peter]

The first thing in approaching the avant-garde is to consider that maybe it isn't all bad. A thread like this can go a long ways in steering away negative connotations.

Yes that is what I'm hoping to achieve. I think though there has to be acknowledgement that some (like a lot of 18th/19th century CM) isn't actually that good! The trouble I have found in the past with these discussions is that there seems to be no distinction made between what is good, great, mediocre or plain awful leaving those trying to understand the music with serious difficulties which inevitably lead to the negative connotations you refer to. I appreciate that much is a matter of taste as Roehre says, however we are able to recognise the greatness of a composer such as Beethoven and even within his works say which are the finest, all be it in a generalised way - e.g. someone can say they prefer the Battle symphony to the 9th but they can't really make a serious case for it being a greater work. That is the sort of thing I'm looking for here rather than the blind acceptance of anything new which I usually find in such debates.

[Peter]

There was a time that I semi-seriously defended a stand that music history started after 1905 (von Webern's String quartet on a motto by Jakob Boehme) and reluctantly had to admit that Beethoven (one of my absolute favourites btw) might be an interesting point of departure as well

But on a more serious note: imo there is no fundamental difference between disliking classical music in general because "I don't like it"/"I don't understand it"/"that's for insiders and therefore very elitist" and liking classical music, but disliking 20th and 21st C music because "I don't like it"/"I don't understand it"/"that's for insiders, too difficult for me".

You cannot discuss taste, but everybody can acquire it or develop one.

Open ears and an open mind are very helpful for a start, but there have got to be some in-roads into this territory for those really interested.
Sometimes it is just one work - that happened to me: my love for classical music was triggered by a performance on the tele of Leonore III in december 1970, my interest and love for 20C repertoire by just one performance of Ives' 4th symphony and Webern's symphony, on one July day in 1976.

One in-road into 20C repertoire:
Beethoven opus 131 - Schönberg string quartet no.1 op.7 - Bartok string quartet no.3 (or.5) - Ligeti string quartet no.1 - Berio sincronie

another one:
Beethoven continental folksong arrangements - Berio Folksongs - Berio Rendering - Berio Sinfonia

or:
Mahler Antonius von Padua fischpredigt (piano-version) - ditto (orchestral version) - Mahler symphony no.2 Scherzo - Berio sinfonia mvt.4

or:
Bach Motets - da Vittoria Requiem - Tallis Spem in alium - Martin Mass - Stravinsky Mass - Stravinsky threni - Webern Cantata 1

or:
Schubert String quartet "Death and maiden" - Crumb Black Angels

or:
Liszt hungarian Rhapsodies (or piano concerto no.1) - Bartok Rhapsody for piano and orchestra opus 1 - Bartok piano concerto no.3 - Bartok piano concerto no.1 - Stravinsky piano concerto - Berg Chamber concerto

Thank you Roehre that is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for and I knew you were the man to ask! Some of the 20th century works you list are known to me such as the Bartok and Stravinsky, but you have provided plenty that are not and a very intelligent way of approaching them via more traditional works - excellent and I'll certainly make an effort!

[Roehre]

Thank you Roehre that is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for and I knew you were the man to ask! Some of the 20th century works you list are known to me such as the Bartok and Stravinsky, but you have provided plenty that are not and a very intelligent way of approaching them via more traditional works - excellent and I'll certainly make an effort!

Thanks Peter.
It is my general feeling that Berio with his multi-faceted output is the composer who offers many inroads into the repertoire of the 2nd half of the 20C. That is because he connects very well with "classical" repertoire -though nearly always in his own unmistakable colours - such as Schubert (in Rendering), Brahms (orchestration of sonatas opus 120), Puccini (his completion of Turandot) - and also uses such material as coat hanger for multi layered compositions (of which the 1968/'69 Sinfonia is the most important example)

Other composers who IMO are helpful to get into music after 1945: Schnittke, Lutoslawski, Ligeti, Messiaen, Keuris, Ohana.
These are not the most Avant-Garde composers imaginable, but used traditional forces to express in an unmistakenly 20C idiom.

Much denser, if you like expressionistic, is Wolfgang Rihm, though a Stockhausen pupil essentially continuing where Alban Berg left in 1935.

Boulez has much to offer, as many works of Stockhausen do, though the latter has some weaknesses.

On the British scene Peter Maxwell Davies' multifaceted output (from e.g. the serialist trumpet sonata opus 1 and the Webern-like Sinfonia, through to expressionistic Songs for a mad King, the spooky opera The Light House, the very folksy An Orkney Wedding with sunrise, the Bach and Purcell arrangements in 1960s disguise, to the Strathclyde concertos and the recent 10 Naxos-string-quartets and 8 symphonies in a post-Mahlerian style) has many brilliant thing to offer, as has Birtwistle's (Green Knight), and from the younger generation Oliver Knussen (Where the wild things are, horn concerto, Higglety Pigglety)

There are obviously many other works and composers, but my aim by mentioning these is to create a bridgehead from which it is much easier to get into the music of the last half a century or so.

[Peter]

Anyone else here have some suggestions of modern classical they really like? My problem is really with post 1950's music - I can cope with Stravinsky, Berg, Bartok, even some Schoenberg! I recognise it isn't going to be easy and I will probably not succeed, but I am prepared to make more of an effort and Roehre's suggestions I think are very helpful.

[Peter]

In my original post I wondered if anyone could come up with landmark 20th century pieces such as The Rite of Spring, one has just occurred to me - Messiaen: Turangalîla-Symphonie. The work is so strikingly original and ground breaking do you think a comparison can be made with Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique?

[Roehre]

In my original post I wondered if anyone could come up with landmark 20th century pieces such as The Rite of Spring, one has just occurred to me - Messiaen: Turangalîla-Symphonie. The work is so strikingly original and ground breaking do you think a comparison can be made with Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique?

THE Stravinsky work which would be accepted as a masterpiece even if it were composed today is his Symphonies for winds, though that dates from 1919/'20 in its original form and 1947 for the less forwardpointing revised version.

Ground braking post-1950s are i.a.
Berio's Sinfonia (1968/'69),
Ligeti's Lontano (1967),
Stockhausen's Gruppen (1957),
Penderecki's Threnody (1960),
Boulez' Le marteau sans maitre (1954),
Louis Andriessen De Volharding (1972),
Zimmermann's Photoptosis (1968),
Keuris' Sinfonia (1972/'74)

[Megan]

Just listened to Stockhausen's Helicopter String Quartet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13D1Y...eature=related

[Preston]

In my original post I wondered if anyone could come up with landmark 20th century pieces such as The Rite of Spring...

I know that I already mentioned this and am not trying to drag anything out, though I did want to say I believe that The Wall is one of the greatest pieces of artistic music of the 20th century. What are you all's thoughts on this?

It is darker and very very depressing (at times), it is full of feeling, has a lot of symbolism, has very beautiful moments, etc. It is not your typical "rock" album - anything but. While it is darker music, the basis is from a very positive point of view. The Wall is an album about a person who suffers from a psychological disorder - the entire album takes place in pretty much one night and each song represents what "Pink" (the main character) is feeling and going through.

Anyway, when I think of rock music I do not necessarily think of this album - I do not even like rock music for a very large part.

[Peter]

THE Stravinsky work which would be accepted as a masterpiece even if it were composed today is his Symphonies for winds, though that dates from 1919/'20 in its original form and 1947 for the less forwardpointing revised version.

Ground braking post-1950s are i.a.
Berio's Sinfonia (1968/'69),
Ligeti's Lontano (1967),
Stockhausen's Gruppen (1957),
Penderecki's Threnody (1960),
Boulez' Le marteau sans maitre (1954),
Louis Andriessen De Volharding (1972),
Zimmermann's Photoptosis (1968),
Keuris' Sinfonia (1972/'74)

Once again thank you Roehre for the recommendations and time allowing I shall give them all a go. Today I've been listening to Schoenberg's chamber symphonies and I don't warm to them as much as Messiaen who interests me a great deal, I think because of that I'll go next down the Boulez road!

[Peter]

I know that I already mentioned this and am not trying to drag anything out, though I did want to say I believe that The Wall is one of the greatest pieces of artistic music of the 20th century. What are you all's thoughts on this?

It is darker and very very depressing (at times), it is full of feeling, has a lot of symbolism, has very beautiful moments, etc. It is not your typical "rock" album - anything but. While it is darker music, the basis is from a very positive point of view. The Wall is an album about a person who suffers from a psychological disorder - the entire album takes place in pretty much one night and each song represents what "Pink" (the main character) is feeling and going through.

Anyway, when I think of rock music I do not necessarily think of this album - I do not even like rock music for a very large part.

The thread really is about contemporary classical music Preston so don't be surprised if you don't get much of a response here - others might be able to comment on your choice but I'm afraid I've no idea!

[Preston]

The thread really is about contemporary classical music Preston so don't be surprised if you don't get much of a response here - others might be able to comment on your choice but I'm afraid I've no idea!

Thanks Peter, sorry if I got a little off topic. I do recommend you watch it though because I think you might like it, ?

I guess when referring to contemporary classical we are talking about music that is only played by an orchestra? And is experimental? Really, I do not know too much about contemporary classical so bear with me, !

All The Best,
Preston