Contemporary Classical music

[Peter]

Thanks Peter, sorry if I got a little off topic. I do recommend you watch it though because I think you might like it, ?

I guess when referring to contemporary classical we are talking about music that is only played by an orchestra? And is experimental? Really, I do not know too much about contemporary classical so bear with me, !

All The Best,
Preston

No we're talking about so called 'serious' music as opposed to 'pop' for any solo or combination of instruments/voice, just as in Baroque, Classical or Romantic. Don't worry about not knowing much about this either, I'm learning myself and Roehre is proving an excellent teacher!

[Preston]

No we're talking about so called 'serious' music as opposed to 'pop' for any solo or combination of instruments/voice, just as in Baroque, Classical or Romantic. Don't worry about not knowing much about this either, I'm learning myself and Roehre is proving an excellent teacher!

The Wall is as serious as any 20th century music to my mind - though I may be wrong?

[Preston]

The problem I have with contemporary classical and classical is that a lot of the composers, as great as they are, are too elitist. What I mean by that is, they care too much about being a musician when, imo, they in truth are not. They want it to bad. Not that they aren't talented and not that I don't enjoy their music – just that they would be better off not trying to write true music.

The true masters are a very limited number. Beings like Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. were different. They were actually filled with musical feeling, thought, etc. They are the true musical minds, imo. I think the musical sense of the world would be a better place had the majority of classical composers not written any music – though, that is only my opinion. Imo, one note of a composer like “Beethoven (Who is far too romanticized about, imo. I really find this romantic fascination with Beethoven's suffering and himself to be pathetic, etc.). Mozart, Bach, etc.” not only matches the entire output of all these false musicians it diminishes it – one note, imo.

My main point is they like the idea of being a composer as much as they like the music, if not more - and the point is the idea should not be liked at all.

[Peter]

The problem I have with contemporary classical and classical is that a lot of the composers, as great as they are, are too elitist. What I mean by that is, they care too much about being a musician when, imo, they in truth are not. They want it to bad. Not that they aren't talented and not that I don't enjoy their music – just that they would be better off not trying to write true music.

The true masters are a very limited number. Beings like Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. were different. They were actually filled with musical feeling, thought, etc. They are the true musical minds, imo. I think the musical sense of the world would be a better place had the majority of classical composers not written any music – though, that is only my opinion. Imo, one note of a composer like “Beethoven (Who is far too romanticized about, imo. I really find this romantic fascination with Beethoven's suffering and himself to be pathetic, etc.). Mozart, Bach, etc.” not only matches the entire output of all these false musicians it diminishes it – one note, imo.

My main point is they like the idea of being a composer as much as they like the music, if not more - and the point is the idea should not be liked at all.

Some interesting points Preston. Delacroix rated Mozart as one of the greatest but let himself down (in my opinion) by putting Cimarosa in the same class, both ahead of Beethoven! Tolstoy was another great 19th century mind who loved Mozart, but then thought little of Beethoven. So really it ultimately comes down to personal taste - some composers speak to us and we relate to them because something in our psyche (which we may not even be conscious of) responds to their message.

I can't agree that unless you are a great master you shouldn't write music - you complain about elitism and yet propose just that! You could also say the same about literature, painting or even playing a musical instrument. We can't all be great but we should at least try and expressing ourselves is part of being human whether others respond or not.

[Preston]

I can't agree that unless you are a great master you shouldn't write music - you complain about elitism and yet propose just that!

I was wrong to say that. I was, again, dreaming of a world without greed and got confused, .

[Preston]

Sorry for this post though I felt wanted to clarify that while I like and have an unimaginable respect for The Wall - it is not music I enjoy - because it is very dark and heavy - and most of all quite insane. Though, it is unbelievable music, imo.

Just felt I should say that, .

[marquis66]

For avant-garde composers, I have always prefered Lutoslawski over Penderecki. The Polish Cold War avant-garde was such a happening place (where a young Henryk Gorecki was quite renowned, before adapting to his more familiar "holy minimalist" phase)!

Here are Lutoslawski's Paganini variations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J856VKlltvA

Then, check out his Cello Concerto:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvp8GF76VXQ

[Roehre]

For avant-garde composers, I have always prefered Lutoslawski over Penderecki. The Polish Cold War avant-garde was such a happening place (where a young Henryk Gorecki was quite renowned, before adapting to his more familiar "holy minimalist" phase)!

Here are Lutoslawski's Paganini variations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J856VKlltvA

Then, check out his Cello Concerto:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvp8GF76VXQ

Marquiss66,
I agree with you regarding Penderecki vs Lutoslawski starting with the works following the former's [1st] violin concerto (1976). IMO his 2nd symphony "Christmas" marks a stylistically retrograde development, returning to traditional "romantic-era" forms without adding anything particularly pendereckian to them, apart from the deep dark orchestral colours, a kind of (at least at first hearing) shapeless body of sounds.

But up to and including Penderecki's 1st symphony (1973) the two were both up-to-date-composers in their own right, Lutoslawski showing his interest in e.g. stochastic processes (the aleatoric passages in the 2nd symphony - 1967- an excellent example) and incorporating these in his inter-war-styled (Szymanowski/Bartok/Stravinsky-influenced) but gradually further developing compositional thinking.

Whereas Lutoslawski continued to develop (the Chain-series and the 4th symphony !), IMO Penderecki was dragged into the already mentioned neo-romantic morass.

[Sorrano]

I'll have to check Lutoslawski out; I'm a big fan of Penderecki. Thanks for the links!

[Preston]

played like it is

I think this should be an appropriate thread for this. If we are talking about music that is written for orchestra, I'd like to bring up the music of Jeremy Soule. I think his music is glorious. His music is pleasant, deep, emotional, has good amounts of feeling, etc. I wish more classical sounded like his music. Which leads me to one of the problems I have with classical - which I enjoy some but not much. I find that a lot of classical music is extremely fast and extremely "clipped and staccato" (from IB). Those are two things I do not like when it comes to enjoyable music - fast, clipped, choppy, sharp, etc. The feelings I enjoy are pleasant, at least they seem so to me. So, it is hard for me to enjoy most classical. Perhaps I'm wrong and do not have the understanding most of you apparently have? I don't think so but could be wrong. When I think of most of the classical music I have heard, to my mind and being truthful not rude, I find the feelings it produces to be mad, extremely fast, unclear, and in all honesty, quite insane as a whole. I listen to music for feeling and most classical does not do it for me, at all.

I am still convinced that Beethoven is a great of genius as any - it is just that I do not understand one note of his music. I feel "things" when I listen to his music, though, I know that what I feel is not what he wrote.

I was listening to Mozart's overture to the Marriage of Figaro (just an example), recently, and came to the conclusion that it should not be called music played like it is. It is by itself - possibly completely nuts and insane. It is so fast that one second of it cannot even be savored, one note cannot be felt, and the feelings are overwhelmingly excited. I think that if the way it is played today is the way Mozart intended it then he was not a musician until he wrote his Requiem - which I actually can find a little feeling in.

So while I know that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. were unimaginably brilliant musicians I cannot enjoy there music. I almost cannot even call it music because of the reasons I have stated. I think it is either (1) I am missing it (2) it is played completely wrong, and, we have lost the feeling throughout time of what was once properly expressed (3) the musicians I refer to are on such a higher level of feeling then me that I cannot even comprehend a slight idea of a note... etc.

Anyway, back to Jeremy. For those interested here is some of his pieces of music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr41p40ifPU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61uMGxlz6rg

This to my mind is the better way of going about feelings?

The Eagles by Howard Shore sung by Renee Fleming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICK8ppnY8qc (music to my ears)

[Peter]

Preston - If you find fast pieces difficult to grasp, try slow ones - there are plenty to choose from and I'll give you 3 here of Mozart's sublimest to prove to you he was one of the greatest of all.

Cosi Fan tutte - Trio "Soave il vento"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMY3Ou9L5xE

Mozart - Nozze di Figaro - "Contessa perdono"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2yrDWEoCpc

Mozart - Piano Concerto No.23 In A Major, K 488 Adagio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf711o8jAQA

[Preston]

Peter, thank you for your reply. I want to say that, in a sense, I have had mixed feelings about Mozart's music - other than his Requiem. Though I do imagine he is a true master, if not greater than Beethoven in many respects - I don't know. Though, I do not want to know. If anything I would like to think of the true masters as equal and not "nit-pick" which is better - which I have done, like a fool "embarresed". And I do understand that the great masters are genius beyond anything I can imagine.

Though, I do not understand why I would prefer to listen to a loud, screeching, unfeeling, high pitched voice, etc. soprano or a booming, unfeeling, etc. baritone (that is imo, though - and i may be wrong) when I could listen to music like the above or these:

James Howard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96SxKk0zeek (this one is quite good, imo)

Enya:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0NoHN1TU5I

Twilight and Shadow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ezEiVyWzvo (Renee Fleming again, )

There are these also that use the voice. Be warned: they are very lustful in their nature and too intense, for me. Though I still enjoy listening to them - such raw emotion and strong feeling.

http://www.soundsonline.com/Voices-Of-Passion (right side of page, under demos)

Just wanted to say, I prefer Jeremy Soule over the ones I have listed above, he is a truly talented person, imo.

[Sorrano]

Preston,

Here are some thoughts that I have and may add later on. It is a difficult thing to decide which composer is the greatest, and perhaps useless. We all have opinions and each composer's music will affect us differently. When I was younger I wanted to know who was the greatest, etc., but have learned that without an agreed upon criteria that as a global issue the notion becomes irrelevant. What matters individually, or with you personally, is how the music affects you.

With regard to tempo and not being able to hear all the notes, in many cases it's more important to feel where that rush of notes is taking you. Mozart's Overture to the Marriage of Figarro does have that rushing flow, but if you just let the notes carry you and do not try to linger on each note, but rather let the whole work on you to feel the work as a whole. When I stumble through the finale of Beethoven's Sonata, Op. 57, on the piano I sense a lot of nuances in the music that when I hear it are totally lost. But the message of the work is not lost upon the hearing but as that relentless energy pushes me from the opening notes to the final chords I have a sense, a feeling, of what the work is about and receive an emotional response as a result. It is a lot of labor to try and hear every single note; let the flow of the work guide your feelings.