Op.39 mp3

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
A jack of all trades would be someone who professed to be an artist on many different instruments. So who is your favourite artist? to prove your point we should find that this person's repertoire consists entirely of Beethoven, otherwise your point is disproved!

The trades in this circumstance are composers, not instruments. My favourite artist?..in this context there is none, for I have heard not one who has not messed up at least two or three sonatas. I would suggest that performers should not waste time messing with Chopin etc until they master Beethoven first, but apparently no pianist is so discerning. Thus I was primarily stating the case if I was such a performer. If I could only play....how great I would be!!!.....Brendel bowing before me.... ah yes...yes..

Originally posted by Peter:

Re. The Preludes - they are both very enjoyable, it's just that no.1 is a more substantial piece with more contrasts and I think it is harmonically more interesting. There is also a place where the theme from no.2 makes a brief appearance. The mood of no.2 is more serene.

Don't say they're both enjoyable, it was you who asked us to choose between them!! It did not occur to me to ask such a question. But you're description of no2 explains my selection...no2 's character reflects more my own...wouldn't you agree?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Don't say they're both enjoyable, it was you who asked us to choose between them!! It did not occur to me to ask such a question. But you're description of no2 explains my selection...no2 's character reflects more my own...wouldn't you agree?

Well if you shouldn't have your Chopin before Beethoven, a very good case can be made that you shouldn't have your Beethoven before Bach (especially),Haydn and Mozart.
In any case it appears that no pianist is good enough for you, so I suggest you give a performance of the Hammerklavier and then complain about everyone else's efforts!

Re. the Preludes why can I not say both are enjoyable without asking what others preference is? I prefer the Hammerklavier to the Pathetique but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the Pathetique! This goes to the heart of the problem with you - it seems it has to be all or nothing.

I suppose you are right - the serenity of number 2 must be essential for you!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well if you shouldn't have your Chopin before Beethoven, a very good case can be made that you shouldn't have your Beethoven before Bach (especially),Haydn and Mozart.

Since when did Bach write true piano music? Since when did M ot H write better piano music than Beethoven. They could all be used as studies for pf students, but when things get serious, they can be put to one side.

Originally posted by Peter:

In any case it appears that no pianist is good enough for you, so I suggest you give a performance of the Hammerklavier and then complain about everyone else's efforts!

Only in the context that none I have heard has mastered Beethoven totally. I do have 'preferred' pianists, but that is a different thing.

Originally posted by Peter:

Re. the Preludes why can I not say both are enjoyable without asking what others preference is? I prefer the Hammerklavier to the Pathetique but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the Pathetique! This goes to the heart of the problem with you - it seems it has to be all or nothing.

I suppose you are right - the serenity of number 2 must be essential for you!

I was just making sure you weren't trying to sit on the fence after asking us to choose! Nothing more.

Whilst on the subject, have you been watching any of Bach's 48 on BBC2? I've witnessed friends of mine perform these works in a state of ecstasy (!) and they often comment how wonderfull they are. Yet for me I cannot get any such emotion from these works. They are clearly technical excersises, some are barely musical to my ears. I'm sure if Bach was writing true performance pieces they would be not like these.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Since when did Bach write true piano music? Since when did M ot H write better piano music than Beethoven. They could all be used as studies for pf students, but when things get serious, they can be put to one side.

Bach wrote music for the keyboard and the fortepiano is a keyboard is it not? What do you mean true piano music? Every great pianist (including Beethoven) would tell you that the study of the Keyboard music of Bach is essential if one is to become a fine artist. The control of tone required and balance between the individual voices is something that every pianist has to master. If a pianist comes to Beethoven having done no Bach, it will show!
Haydn and Mozart both wrote some very fine piano sonatas and they should not be neglected. The two Preludes we are featuring are not as great as B's sonatas but I'm sure you would agree that doesn't mean they shouldn't be performed.

Only in the context that none I have heard has mastered Beethoven totally. I do have 'preferred' pianists, but that is a different thing.

Then why not dedicate the rest of your life to achieving what no one else has in your eyes!

Whilst on the subject, have you been watching any of Bach's 48 on BBC2? I've witnessed friends of mine perform these works in a state of ecstasy (!) and they often comment how wonderfull they are. Yet for me I cannot get any such emotion from these works. They are clearly technical excersises, some are barely musical to my ears. I'm sure if Bach was writing true performance pieces they would be not like these.

I haven't been watching these - too late for me! Joanna Macgreggor is the pianist I believe. I agree that they are somewhat academic, but then fugue is! There is a huge range in these 48 preludes and fugues and some are bound to appeal more than others - My favourite fugues are the C#min from Book 2 and C#Major from Book 1. On the whole I find the preludes are more satisfactory as pieces in their own right and I often use these for students as they make excellent studies - far more musical than any of the dry technical exercises such as Hanon (though I use these as well).



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Bach wrote music for the keyboard and the fortepiano is a keyboard is it not? What do you mean true piano music?

Music that is specifically written with the fortepiano in mind. The harpsichord is more appropriate for Bach's keyboard music, certainly the Goldberg Variations.

Originally posted by Peter:

Every great pianist (including Beethoven) would tell you that the study of the Keyboard music of Bach is essential if one is to become a fine artist. The control of tone required and balance between the individual voices is something that every pianist has to master. If a pianist comes to Beethoven having done no Bach, it will show!

Which is why I said Bach would be suitable during the student stage of a performers career. Beethoven didn't write any studies for students, but you would need more than Bach's 48. Who's piano studies did B recommend, was it Cramer? Clementi? Can't recall.

Originally posted by Peter:

Haydn and Mozart both wrote some very fine piano sonatas and they should not be neglected. The two Preludes we are featuring are not as great as B's sonatas but I'm sure you would agree that doesn't mean they shouldn't be performed.

How can you compare preludes with sonatas? However, B's 2 preludes here are more musical than most of the 48 I've heard, even if not so difficult, so they to my ears are more suitable as performance pieces.

Originally posted by Peter:

Then why not dedicate the rest of your life to achieving what no one else has in your eyes!

If I knew 20 years ago what I know now, I would.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I haven't been watching these - too late for me! Joanna Macgreggor is the pianist I believe. I agree that they are somewhat academic, but then fugue is! There is a huge range in these 48 preludes and fugues and some are bound to appeal more than others - My favourite fugues are the C#min from Book 2 and C#Major from Book 1. On the whole I find the preludes are more satisfactory as pieces in their own right and I often use these for students as they make excellent studies - far more musical than any of the dry technical exercises such as Hanon (though I use these as well).

The trouble for me with Bach is that most if not all of his output I have heard has something of this dry intellectual nature to it as well, ie the emotional content is somewhat lacking, I feel a strange sence of emotional detachment. For me Handel has a better balance between the head and the heart. Beethoven better still. I get the impression Bach was no humanist like the other two, Bach's emotion is not Earthly.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Which is why I said Bach would be suitable during the student stage of a performers career. Beethoven didn't write any studies for students, but you would need more than Bach's 48. Who's piano studies did B recommend, was it Cramer? Clementi? Can't recall.

He recommended Cramer studies and Clementi Sonatas! (neither of which would provide the part playing experience found in Bach). He did apparently think of writing his own studies and commented that they would have been quite different - I'm sure!


How can you compare preludes with sonatas? However, B's 2 preludes here are more musical than most of the 48 I've heard, even if not so difficult, so they to my ears are more suitable as performance pieces.

I wasn't comparing Preludes with Sonatas as such, I was only using that as an example as we have put these Beethoven Preludes for discussion. I totally disagree with your assertion that the Bach Preludes are not suitable or as suitable as the Beethoven! Bach's cover a far wider range, obviously you haven't enjoyed the ones you have heard but they are all different and you can only judge when you are familiar with them all and I mean very familiar, not just one hearing. Beethoven would never have claimed that his 2 Preludes were superior to the Bach 48, perhaps he was being modest? (not usually a quality I'd associate with Beethoven!)

The trouble for me with Bach is that most if not all of his output I have heard has something of this dry intellectual nature to it as well, ie the emotional content is somewhat lacking, I feel a strange sence of emotional detachment. For me Handel has a better balance between the head and the heart. Beethoven better still. I get the impression Bach was no humanist like the other two, Bach's emotion is not Earthly.

You are not the first to make such a criticism of Bach - Bach was of course employed by the Church, therein perhaps lies the difference.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:
[b]

Originally posted by Rod:


I wasn't comparing Preludes with Sonatas as such, I was only using that as an example as we have put these Beethoven Preludes for discussion. I totally disagree with your assertion that the Bach Preludes are not suitable or as suitable as the Beethoven! Bach's cover a far wider range, obviously you haven't enjoyed the ones you have heard but they are all different and you can only judge when you are familiar with them all and I mean very familiar, not just one hearing. Beethoven would never have claimed that his 2 Preludes were superior to the Bach 48, perhaps he was being modest? (not usually a quality I'd associate with Beethoven!)

Well, it is well known that Bach's 48 are primarily excersises (and I've heard a few of them more than once), Beethoven himself mastered them as a child (or at least the first book). Bearing Beethovens great awareness of the 48, one must consider why B published (and why a mere 2) op39 (if indeed he was responsible for their aquiring this opus, I'll look into this)? I suggest on hearing they are not so much pure excersises in the same context as the 48. I presume they were the result of Beethoven's own studies but I can only assume B saw their value more as music proper than music excercises, as, if the later criterion is considered, they do not really serve so much of a purpose compared to the 48. That is, good excersises do not necessarily need to be very musical, whereas good music does not necessarily need to be technically challenging. All that being said, why I enjoy the 48 less is still largely why I enjoy all of Bach's music less. Waffle waffle...!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-14-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, it is well known that Bach's 48 are primarily excersises (and I've heard a few of them more than once), Beethoven himself mastered them as a child (or at least the first book). Bearing Beethovens great awareness of the 48, one must consider why B published (and why a mere 2) op39 (if indeed he was responsible for their aquiring this opus, I'll look into this)? I suggest on hearing they are not so much pure excersises in the same context as the 48. I presume they were the result of Beethoven's own studies but I can only assume B saw their value more as music proper than music excercises, as, if the later criterion is considered, they do not really serve so much of a purpose compared to the 48. That is, good excersises do not necessarily need to be very musical, whereas good music does not necessarily need to be technically challenging. All that being said, why I enjoy the 48 less is still largely why I enjoy all of Bach's music less. Waffle waffle...!!

I think the Bach 48 go way beyond mere exercises - though their original intention was to display the possibility of writing in every key for the keyboard. Hanon is what I regard as mere exercise - pure 5 finger work with no musical interest, yet of technical value. I accept that Bach is not to your taste but I think it's your loss!

The Beethoven preludes were written when he was 18 and are undoubtedly influenced by the Bach (indeed I doubt that they would have been written in the first place without Bach's example). Several of Beethoven's early works were of course published at later dates such as the 2 Sonatas Op.49 (and these against Beethoven's will). The two sonatas are good examples actually because they almost certainly were written for teaching purposes - hence Beethoven's reluctance for publication. Do you think therefore they should be removed from the official 32?

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-17-2001).]

[PDG]

The first prelude is more formal, the second more melodic (reminds me of a well-known hymn?). I prefer the second, but I'd like to hear them both played on an organ. If Beethoven were (and I agree that he was) influenced by Bach's 48, then I wonder why he didn't write fugues to accompany them?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think the Bach 48 go way beyond mere exercises - though their original intention was to display the possibility of writing in every key for the keyboard. Hanon is what I regard as mere exercise - pure 5 finger work with no musical interest, yet of technical value. I accept that Bach is not to your taste but I think it's your loss!

Fair enough if that's the way you see it, but I would have needed to have found Bach to have then lost him!

Originally posted by Peter:

The Beethoven preludes were written when he was 15 and are undoubtedly influenced by the Bach (indeed I doubt that they would have been written in the first place without Bach's example).

Maybe so, but I'm sure every man and his dog wrote preludes then, they can't all be down to Bach alone! Where did Handel get his ideas from?! You credit Bach as an influence on Beethoven's efforts but interestingly you make no connection with Bach and Hanon's, who I presume (having never heard of this guy), must have also heard the 48? I think there's enough of Beethoven in op39!

Originally posted by Peter:

Several of Beethoven's early works were of course published at later dates such as the 2 Sonatas Op.49 (and these against Beethoven's will). The two sonatas are good examples actually because they almost certainly were written for teaching purposes - hence Beethoven's reluctance for publication. Do you think therefore they should be removed from the official 32?

I've never regarded the 32 as official in the first place, you may notice I never refer to any of these works by their sequence number!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
The first prelude is more formal, the second more melodic (reminds me of a well-known hymn?). I prefer the second, but I'd like to hear them both played on an organ. If Beethoven were (and I agree that he was) influenced by Bach's 48, then I wonder why he didn't write fugues to accompany them?

You seem to see things near enough as I do (which may or may not be a good thing!). And the point about the lack of fugues is a valid one, I have another B prelude piece that similarly lacks the following fugue. B's 2 to me are more consciously musical and dramatic, regardless of their quality. It could be no other way with Beethoven's compositional style. There's more to this genre than just Bach's example, however good it may be.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Fair enough if that's the way you see it, but I would have needed to have found Bach to have then lost him!

True, but I'd say the same to anyone who saw nothing in Beethoven, their loss!

Maybe so, but I'm sure every man and his dog wrote preludes then, they can't all be down to Bach alone! Where did Handel get his ideas from?! You credit Bach as an influence on Beethoven's efforts but interestingly you make no connection with Bach and Hanon's, who I presume (having never heard of this guy), must have also heard the 48? I think there's enough of Beethoven in op39!



We know for a fact that Neefe had introduced Beethoven to Bach's preludes and fugues and these are works he loved and played throughout his life - are you saying this had no influence on him?
As to where Handel got his ideas, I would suggest that the Italian influence was the main source, but I am not aware of any substantial set of Preludes and Fugues for Keyboard comparable to the Bach 48, so what are you alluding to?
Hanon's exercises are designed totally as technical exercises to strenghten the fingers and promote agility - part playing doen't come into them. They are not intended as musical pieces - no one could ever perform them in public as they are akin to scales and arpeggios.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
[BThey are not intended as musical pieces - no one could ever perform them in public as they are akin to scales and arpeggios.

[/B]

Even Bach was influenced by the Italians Peter. I'll upload one of Handels if you want to compare. The 48 are far from ideal performance pieces also. I thought he initially wrote them for his son as excercises. Does Bach himself have anything to say on the matter?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Claudie MICAULT]

Influenced by Bach or not, I find those Préludes pretty good for a guy of 15 !!! I would also like to hear they on organ.
Anyway it is a great thing that we know them.

Funny idea to put the "Méthode HANON" as a concert programm.... naturally with all the way of playing each exercises ! I can imagine that the public would maybe prefer that as some Stockhausen or Hindemith !!!



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Claudie