Op.39 mp3

[Peter]

These two interesting preludes are now available on the Rare Beethoven page -
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/selected.html


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
These two interesting preludes are now available on the Rare Beethoven page -
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/selected.html

Given that pieces such as these were typically written as excersises or to be used by students, as with Bach's '48' I wonder if you humble pianists out there can tell me how Op39 compares to Bach's or other's similar efforts in terms of what is technically trying to be achieved and also any stylistic comparisons.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Peter]

Well Bach has 2 sets of 24 preludes and fugues to go through all the keys, and his preludes cover a much wider range of emotions and technical difficulties than can be expected just from Beethoven's 2 Preludes. Having said that, the influence of Bach is pretty obvious, but more striking to me is a similarity to some of the contrapuntal writing in the late piano works, where as we have said before the Baroque plays a big part. These 2 preludes are certainly very fine and deserve to be better known - I mentioned to my old piano teacher that I was working on the Beethoven Fantasia Op.77 and she had never heard of it - and this despite having won the Beethoven prize at the Royal Academy! She asked why it wasn't better known and I could only answer that it had probably been overshadowed by the Sonatas.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Bach has 2 sets of 24 preludes and fugues to go through all the keys, and his preludes cover a much wider range of emotions and technical difficulties than can be expected just from Beethoven's 2 Preludes. Having said that, the influence of Bach is pretty obvious, but more striking to me is a similarity to some of the contrapuntal writing in the late piano works, where as we have said before the Baroque plays a big part. These 2 preludes are certainly very fine and deserve to be better known - I mentioned to my old piano teacher that I was working on the Beethoven Fantasia Op.77 and she had never heard of it - and this despite having won the Beethoven prize at the Royal Academy! She asked why it wasn't better known and I could only answer that it had probably been overshadowed by the Sonatas.

Indeed, B's use of this 'baroque counterpoint' in the late works is for me the whole emotional 'essence' of the late sound, even when B is not always observing what could be called the Baroque style, ie what is frequently associated as a more profound or spiritual sound. I would say myself that the Baroque lends itself more to this 'profound' world than the early Classical period or indeed the post-Classical styles. With the vocal works the counterpoint is more Handelian, but with the solo piano Bach comes more into mind, though B's dramatic developent of the form in the fugues is more akin to Handel who was like B inherently more of a dramatic composer. Bach's counterpoint is more formal and strict (or 'perfect') to my ears, too strict for the likes of B to write for long without some kind of 'rule breaking'. development.

Regarding op77 I think you're teacher has little or no excuse for not knowing it, especially having won such a prize! It is not an insignificant piece, but all this may go some way to illustrating how the music profession tends to be a 'jack of all composers and master of none'. I personally would find it impossible to maintain a consistant interest across such diverse music as pianists typically perform. I would just play Beethoven and nothing else. Then I might become good at it!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
I personally would find it impossible to maintain a consistant interest across such diverse music as pianists typically perform. I would just play Beethoven and nothing else. Then I might become good at it!

I think that is not very wise from a "business" standpoint. Besides, how could a pianist go his whole life without playing Chopin? That's missing out on a lot of important (I use that word in place of "good," so I don't give you the chance to tell me that Chopin sucks) piano music. But I think that if a pianist is not a good player of Beethoven, it is more because he hasn't learned correctly, and not because his time was taken up with other things, for the most part.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I think that is not very wise from a "business" standpoint.

Not so true I think, there are plenty of folks out there who quite like Mr Beethoven and are prepared to spend money proving it. If one adds all the Beethoven duos, trios, concertos etc that I also would be playing with other persons of taste, could all of this not keep me in coffee?

Originally posted by Chris:

Besides, how could a pianist go his whole life without playing Chopin? That's missing out on a lot of important (I use that word in place of "good," so I don't give you the chance to tell me that Chopin sucks) piano music.

Well, I can live without C without too much difficutly. I would be a bad C player if my heart was not in it.

Originally posted by Chris:

But I think that if a pianist is not a good player of Beethoven, it is more because he hasn't learned correctly, and not because his time was taken up with other things, for the most part.

If this is true then you have robbed all those second rate pros of the one excuse I was providing them.

Anyway, what lovely music these preludes are (in spite of the piano!).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Chris]

Um...you do realize there are other people in the world besides you, right? People who like Chopin and Mozart? Who will pay for concerts and recordings of their music? If everyone only played Beethoven, there would be a huge portion of the market not being attended to.

[Peter]

I think it would be quite absurd as a pianist to play nothing but Beethoven. I cannot believe it is a position Beethoven would have held and I am sure he would have found much to admire in the piano music of Chopin and other later composers.

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'Man know thyself'

[Susan]

Brilliant stuff! How come I've never heard of this???! As a "didn't start playing piano till I was 40" person, I've found Bach's preludes to be my favourite kinds of pieces; because of the logical progressions they take. It makes it much easier on my rusty brain to sense what's coming next, rather than trying to memorize a lot. These preludes sound like fun to play; does anyone know if the sheet music is readily available?
I guess they might be in a collection with some Bagatelles, like the Naxos cd. I shall find them!!
Tomorrow the 'Tempest'!

Susan


[This message has been edited by Susan (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Susan:
These preludes sound like fun to play; does anyone know if the sheet music is readily available?
I guess they might be in a collection with some Bagatelles, like the Naxos cd. I shall find them!!
Tomorrow the 'Tempest'!

Susan

I have them in a collection that includes the Op.77 fantasy,Op.89 Polonaise as well as the Op.33 Bagatelles and Op.51 Rondos. The edition is Peters (ref no.297aa). The Preludes make for excellent sight-reading practice with the constant key signature changes every few bars. I prefer no.1 - anyone else have a preference?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Um...you do realize there are other people in the world besides you, right? People who like Chopin and Mozart? Who will pay for concerts and recordings of their music? If everyone only played Beethoven, there would be a huge portion of the market not being attended to.

Don't see any problem here, the are other pianists to cater for other tastes. I was referring only to myself, if I were a pianist. I don't think you can simply play Rachmanilow one minute, then Beethoven the next without some 'cross-contamination' (from the former to the latter!). On top of this R's piano is a different machine to B's. Most pros don't give a damn about things like this.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
I don't think you can simply play Rachmanilow one minute, then Beethoven the next without some 'cross-contamination' (from the former to the latter!).

That's part of learning to play in the first place. There isn't some magical force that makes people play Beethoven in an inappropriate style. It's a decision by the musician. A wrong one, granted, but a decision nonetheless.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
That's part of learning to play in the first place. There isn't some magical force that makes people play Beethoven in an inappropriate style. It's a decision by the musician. A wrong one, granted, but a decision nonetheless.

I didn't say it was a magical force. Unlike yourself, it appears, I am not putting the blame wholely on the pianist but on the general expectation that all composers can be mastered by a single individual, with the same instrument. I say this is impossible as the styles are too diverse for one individual to master to a really high degree. Doubly impossible using the modern piano alone. The result will be a collection of average performances, which so happens to be what we have had in reality for years. Specialise my boy...specialise!

No point in playing music you don't like on an instrument you don't like or that is inappropriate. For those who claim to like everything....be suspicious!

On my guitar I only play what I like and make no attempt to play a single note beyond this selection, the result being that if Angus dies on stage I could fill his boots seamlessly, if they fit ok that is. I assume the same could be done with Beethoven.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Not all composers, but several, yes. And who says they have to use one instrument? They could play the fortepiano if they felt like it, but they either believe it is of no consequence, or believe the modern piano is better suited to the task. "Specialising" in one composer is fine but to take it to the extreme of not even playing any other is going too far.

[Susan]

Thanks, Peter, for the info- I'm going to ask my local music store to order it for me (Peters web site doesn't list it). And yes, from just a listening point of view, I prefer the 1st prelude as well.

Susan