Fingerprinting

[Peter]

I would suggest that some composers may choose specific keys than others, or choose different modes as preferred (major to minor). Beethoven's E-flat compositions tend to stand out and have certain characteristics, such as the 3rd Symphony and the 5th Piano Concerto. They are noble and heroic works. I also think of the dynamic qualities on the earlier E-flat piano sonata, as well, how dynamic it is, etc. These are some thoughts to be wrestled with (and sorry for using a preposition to end a sentence with!)

Yes this is also true - Beethoven's 'C minor mood' or his tender Ab major are good examples as well.

[Peter]

Thank you for your various contributions.

From these, the answer to the first of my original questions - Can music be fingerprinted? - seems to be a definite 'Yes'.

My second question was What are the minimum component parts necessary to define a given fingerprint?

Several elements have been proposed.

(In alphabetical order) Bonn1827, Megan, Peter, and Philip have variously suggested (i) Intervals, (ii) Harmony/Instrumentation, (iii) Melody/Note progression, (iv) Rhythm, (v) Register, (vi) Dynamics, and (vii) Keys.

In order to try to keep my ultimate aim - a model to identify musical fingerprinting - as simple as possible, I suggest we attempt to eliminate as much as possible and then see what can be done with what remains.

Taking them one by one, I would like to start with what might turn out to be a contentious candidate for elimination: the key.

Reduced to its bare bones, my argument is this: fingerprints are independent of key. One could take a given score, change the key, play it, and the fingerprint would still be there.

I can develop this argument if anyone wishes or if, as I suspect will be the case, others (strongly) disagree.

Euan

Yes you can transpose pieces and still have the fingerprints clearly visible, but what is perhaps more important is the relationship between keys, Philip has referred to this. Also as I mentioned regarding Haydn his unusual choice of key not only for an individual work but within that work itself - for example the quartet in D Op.76/5 has it's slow movement in the remote key of F#.
Another melodic trait of Haydn is a penchant for folk tunes and also odd phrase lengths.

[Euan Mackinnon]

In this thread I am arguing that a model of musical fingerprinting should be possible.

At this stage, I would like to continue with the process of eliminating components in order to simplify the model.

In the preceding post I suggested that we could eliminate key. I expected some (strong) disagreement with this but (so far) there has been none.

Indeed, Peter (for me, an authoritative voice) agrees but stresses the relationship between keys.

Yes you can transpose pieces and still have the fingerprints clearly visible, but what is perhaps more important is the relationship between keys. (Peter 10th April, 2011)

I would simply add (and am assuming Peter would agree) that transposing pieces maintains the relationship between keys so we have lost nothing (from our proposed model) by eliminating keys from it.

(I will discuss Intervals – essential components, in my view, for any model of musical fingerprinting - in a later post.)

Sorrano hints at what I had expected to be the main argument against eliminating keys: the characteristics (or ‘colours’) of keys.

I would suggest that some composers may choose specific keys than others […]. Beethoven's E-flat compositions tend to stand out and have certain characteristics, such as the 3rd Symphony and the 5th Piano Concerto. They are noble and heroic works. (Sorrano 10th April)

Dealing with why I believe that, on the one hand, keys cannot be associated with any particular ‘colour’ while, on the other, accepting Sorrano’s point would take more space than is generally acceptable to readers of forums. So I will savagely truncate the argument thus:

From elementary physics, any key is made up of three components:

1. A starting pitch - the base reference point if you like. I will call this the Reference Pitch.

Today the Reference Pitch that is overwhelmingly used is Concert Pitch. Typically, this defines A above middle C at 440Hz. That was very far from the norm for most of the composers we are trying to fingerprint.

2. The basic increments in pitch above (or below) the Reference Pitch. I mean the ordered list of every note that could appear in a score. For simplicity, I will stick with the 12 note chromatic scale.

Furthermore, and of central importance, the basic increments we use today have been ‘equalised’ (Equal Temperament) in order (principally) to allow composers to jump from any key to any key without causing unacceptable dissonances. These intervals are a ‘compromise’ between pitches that physics shows are properly in tune and pitches dictated by the constructional limitations of many instruments.

3. The intervals used in a given scale.

For example, the major scale we are all used to which, from the base note (i.e. the key note) of the scale uses two basic increments, followed by two increments, followed by one increment, and so on.

Let us then take a simple example of the implication of all this.

Mozart (say) composes a piece in Bb major (and we will assume – a very big assumption, that he hears the scale under Equal Temperament). Now according to one of the many ‘keys-have-colours’ web sites - http://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html - Bb major is “Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors [sic]. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere”.

But there is a problem. Mozart’s Bb was approx 446Hz, i.e. very close to the modern Concert Pitch (A = 440Hz) - see, for example, http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm.

Thus, while Mozart was expressing “Anger, rage, jealousy, fury …” etc etc, we are actually hearing A major which (the web site above claims) exhibits “declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God”, i.e. not far off the polar opposite of what Mozart (is supposed to have) intended!

I can develop the argument at greater length and would need to to complete the reasons I can agree with Sorrano but still maintain that keys do not have particular characteristics or ‘colour’. However, the central thrust of the case is summarised above.

Euan

[Quijote]

I agree with you Euan that certain fingeprints (specifically, favoured / idiosyncratic harmonic progressions) will remain the same with any choice of key (as I mentioned in an example above : Bach favours I-VII6-I6 over I-Vc-I6, and this in whatever key).
Other typical string quartet fingerprints of Haydn and Mozart (and Beethoven to a lesser extent) are the use of single, double or triple suspensions (or retardations), though I suppose one could argue these are a stylistic commonplace, and not specific to H,M and LvB.

[Quijote]

Sorry, I've just realized that I-VII6-I6 means absolutely nothing to some people here (and there is no shame in that).
So, it is a common fingerprint of Bach, in his chorales expecially. I'll try and explain this fingerprint.
Imagine your melody begins with C-B-C (or Doh-Ti-Doh). Well, you could harmonize that in a number of ways, but Bach prefers one particular progression over perhaps two other commonly available ones (he prefers the I-VII6-I6 progression) that gives C-D-E (Do-Ré-Mi) in the bass, with the inner voices arranged accordingly.
Is there really a difference? I would say yes : more "bite", less "smooth". I hope that is clear. Please let me know if not, and I'll try another approach.

[Quijote]

And if you don't mind me continuing to "talk shop", there is another Bach fingerprint (harmonic) : the dominant 13th - tonic progression. To put it briefly, according to the harmony treatises, there is only one effective way of harmonizing a mediant to tonic cadence (that is, the melody is E to C / Mi to Do, falling a third).
Well, Bach uses this way of harmonizing the Mi-Do extremely rarely in the chorales, and if the chorale melody has this profile he chooses to modulate instead to the relative minor, which can be a bit of a shock at times !!
This dominant thirteenth-tonic is rather a cadence used by Schubert and Mendelssohn (some would say to excess, but that's one of their fingerprints!).

[Quijote]

Euan, I don't know where we're going with this, but if you somehow manage to produce a "music pastiche or style-writing" software you'll make a fortune !!!!!!!!
Need a business partner? Hey everyone, I asked first !

[Quijote]

Or I could offer consultancy. My fees are available on request.

[Roehre]

Or I could offer consultancy. My fees are available on request.

And will be sent by snail mail in an anonymous brown envelop

[Peter]

And if you don't mind me continuing to "talk shop", there is another Bach fingerprint (harmonic) : the dominant 13th - tonic progression. To put it briefly, according to the harmony treatises, there is only one effective way of harmonizing a mediant to tonic cadence (that is, the melody is E to C / Mi to Do, falling a third).
Well, Bach uses this way of harmonizing the Mi-Do extremely rarely in the chorales, and if the chorale melody has this profile he chooses to modulate instead to the relative minor, which can be a bit of a shock at times !!
This dominant thirteenth-tonic is rather a cadence used by Schubert and Mendelssohn (some would say to excess, but that's one of their fingerprints!).

Another of Schubert's being his fondness for a juxtaposition of major-minor tonalities - goodness it's only when you think about what you're writing you realise the meaningless of the jargon we musicians use for most people - why can't musicians speak plain English/Chinese etc..?

[Peter]

I can develop the argument at greater length and would need to to complete the reasons I can agree with Sorrano but still maintain that keys do not have particular characteristics or ‘colour’. However, the central thrust of the case is summarised above.

Euan

Scriabin would of course have disagreed - perhaps what is missing in this argument is how the colours of the keys affected the composers? Therefore it doesn't matter if I see C major as Yellow or whatever, what matters is the how the composer saw/heard /felt it? Therefore for a composer such as Scriabin it was probably an essential part of his compositional method?

[Sorrano]

Rather than have characteristics, it might be useful to note that various instruments, solo and in combination, have different sounds in the different keys. Some keys favor specific instrumentation more than others. If some keys seem to be brighter that is probably because the instrumentation is more favored for that set of instruments.

[Peter]

Rather than have characteristics, it might be useful to note that various instruments, solo and in combination, have different sounds in the different keys. Some keys favor specific instrumentation more than others. If some keys seem to be brighter that is probably because the instrumentation is more favored for that set of instruments.

Yes that's true and it's interesting how we talk about 'brighter', 'dark', 'light' and 'shading' in reference to tone quality.

[Euan Mackinnon]

To recap:

In this thread we are examining the question: What are the minimum component parts necessary to define a model of a musical fingerprint?

I listed 7 elements suggested by various people in other threads. These were: (i) Intervals, (ii) Harmony/Instrumentation, (iii) Melody/Note progression, (iv) Rhythm, (v) Register, (vi) Dynamics, and (vii) Keys.

To date we have eliminated the seventh: keys.

I would like now to turn to numbers 5 and 6: Register and Dynamics.

I will define these terms as follows:

Register: the range, or characteristic part of that range, of an instrument or the human voice.
Dynamics: (i) indications of loudness/softness, (ii) indications of style such as staccato/legato, and (iii) indications of velocity or velocity change such as lento/presto, accelerando/ritardando.

The question then becomes:

Are either or both of these necessary components in a model of musical fingerprinting?

Or, to put it another way, if they were removed (or ignored, or deliberately changed) when performing any particular score, would such a removal/change alter, weaken, or destroy completely, any musical fingerprint in that score?

Megan, in particular, feels that they are an important part of fingerprinting.

Well, I can recognize Vivaldi by the very bright high register, with a very clear and blold dynamics shape. There's not much room for shadow or a shading of the keys in Vivaldi's musical world.
Beethoven, tends to use notes or key in the middle or lower register and this gives him the flexibility to move which everway he wants. (Megan 9th April)

I beg to differ a little from this view. Except where the changes made to (i) the dynamic markings (exceptionally slow where presto was marked, for example) or (ii) the intended register (playing the high trumpet on the double bass, for example) are wilfully different, I suggest that removing the Register or Dynamics as components in our proposed model would make little or no difference compared with other elements yet to be discussed.

If that is agreed – and I can imagine that not everyone will agree – we are now reduced to 4 possible elements in our model: (i) Intervals, (ii) Harmony/Instrumentation, (iii) Melody/Note progression, and (iv) Rhythm.

Euan

[Peter]

If that is agreed – and I can imagine that not everyone will agree – we are now reduced to 4 possible elements in our model: (i) Intervals, (ii) Harmony/Instrumentation, (iii) Melody/Note progression, and (iv) Rhythm.

Euan

No you can't eliminate them - sudden Sf marks, adbrupt changes from Forte to Piano are part of the style of C.P.E.Bach and Beethoven learnt much from him as these characteristics feature a lot in his music. Then what about Signor Crescendo himself - Rossini? As to register, a wide spacing between the hands becomes a part of Beethoven's late piano writing style.