Fingerprinting

[Megan]

I'll explain as best I can, but please feel free to correct me.

Well, I can recognize Vivaldi by the very bright high register, with a very clear and blold dynamics shape. There's not much room for shadow or a shading of the keys in Vivaldi's musical world.
Beethoven, tends to use notes or key in the middle or lower register and this gives him the flexibility to move which everway he wants.
Sibelius has a huanting tone.
It's a bit difficult for me to explain,I recognize the style.
I'll leave the rest to others more compentent in musical vocabulary.

[Peter]

Every 'great' composer does have an individual sound - all the rest are immitators. But what Euan is getting at of course is exactly what is this fingerprint? Take Tchaikovsky, he often makes use of a descending scale pattern in his melodies and he has a very distinctive use of the woodwind instruments, especially in low bass passages the sound is unmistakeable. Elgar with his penchant for the interval of a 7th and frequent use of Nobilente in his scores - the typical Elgarian tune. Mendelssohn with his over-reliance on the feminine ending and wonderfully colourful sherzos - I'd have to read up quite a bit on this again as it's been a while (I'm hoping others can step in) but there are plenty of examples of these musical clues in the works of 'great' composers. I'm surprised no one mentioned Mahler - an unmistakeable sound.

[Quijote]

Well, I do teach harmony, and one of the courses I give is harmony in the style of Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven. In fact, the course I teach is about harmonizing a given melody for string quartet in the style of these three Viennese masters. So, beyond the finer points of string writing and associated technique, I do teach what the "generic elements" are in this period, and for each of these three composers. The trouble is, it is clear that Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven do have idiosynchratic harmonic approaches, but I don't have too much time to really get into these fingerprints, so to speak (I have 12 weeks to teach this course). Some simple examples would be how Haydn quite fancies a quick excursion to the supertonic minor after only a couple of bars, how Mozart likes chords on the sharpened 4th in preference to a possible augmented sixth, how Beethoven does indeed like the A6 and Neopolitan Sixth and a lot of enharmonic spelling, and so on. And these are just a couple of examples. So I give my students a brief musico-grammatical lexicon (if I can term it that way) of common classical practice, and lots of harmony exercises to put all these ideas into practice. If I really wanted to get into the details of the subject, I would need several terms (by which I mean semesters)! And that's just Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn. But it's sure that there are fingerprints.

[Quijote]

Another subject I teach is harmonizing a given chorale melody in the style of JS Bach. Again, there are clear harmonic fingerprints that Bach employs (he prefers I-VIIb-I6 instead of the passing 6/4, for example) and it is a style that can easily be copied (it is called "pastiche" or "style" writing). So again, there are clear fingerprints (or harmonic progressions) that can be studied and copied. But at this level we are talking about generic stylistic fingerprints. We have forgotten the "genius touch". That I cannot teach! What could be "the genius touch" at the chorale harmony level? Well, to see a note that could be treated as an accented passing note when your average (and competent) student (or teacher) would see it as a harmony note; to treat a note as an unexpected seventh; to harmonize a note with chords that would not be foreign to late 19th century practice ... And so on.

[Sorrano]

Where were you, Philip, when I was taking harmony?? Your class sounds very interesting to me, and the insights that you get as a teacher almost make me wish I had gone into teaching (music).

[Peter]

Where were you, Philip, when I was taking harmony?? Your class sounds very interesting to me, and the insights that you get as a teacher almost make me wish I had gone into teaching (music).

Oh no, lucky escape there Sorrano! Just finished teaching for the term and the holidays have come just in time for my sanity to remain intact!

[Quijote]

Oh no, lucky escape there Sorrano! Just finished teaching for the term and the holidays have come just in time for my sanity to remain intact!

I have to agree with Headmaster (I don't like doing so, but one must, at times). Teaching is a serious challenge to one's sanity. I only teach 10-12 hours a week (I'm a part-time teacher) but you have no idea of how much preparation and marking that involves. You know I am particular abouty spelling; well, I'm considerably more particular about "musical spelling" and correct "musical grammar" (i.e. correct - and musical, and effective, if not affective - harmonic progressions), so you can well imagine the state of high blood pressure I'm often in (not to mention the trials and tribulations of this forum, hah!).
Anyway, where was I? Oh yes, sanity. Give me half a kilo, if you'd be so kind.

[Preston]

Be glad you all did not attempt to be a lawyer in a private practice, ! This is what my father does and has done for the past 30 years. He wishes he had became a professor after practicing for around 10 years.

[Preston]

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes, sanity. Give me half a kilo, if you'd be so kind.

Can I have some of that, ?

[Preston]

Back on topic - From the standpoint of someone who is not trained, etc. off the top of my head - the two composers that I sometimes will question which one is which are Mozart and Haydn. I usually figure it out though have not on several occasions. I guess this is because they have a similar writing process and similar style? It is usually the earlier Mozart (15-26?) that I get confused with Haydn.

[Sorrano]

Be glad you all did not attempt to be a lawyer in a private practice, ! This is what my father does and has done for the past 30 years. He wishes he had became a professor after practicing for around 10 years.

It had been my intention to teach, but I spent too much time studying, got burned out by it, and was frustrated by some of the politics between teachers within the music department. I don't think I could have been a lawyer, though.

[Preston]

It had been my intention to teach, but I spent too much time studying, got burned out by it, and was frustrated by some of the politics between teachers within the music department. I don't think I could have been a lawyer, though.

Yes, everyday it is similar to researching the laws, studying, and writing multiple essays - every work day. And not making too much unless you are a class-action attorney or get lucky and get a case which is worth a lot.

[Peter]

Back on topic - From the standpoint of someone who is not trained, etc. off the top of my head - the two composers that I sometimes will question which one is which are Mozart and Haydn. I usually figure it out though have not on several occasions. I guess this is because they have a similar writing process and similar style? It is usually the earlier Mozart (15-26?) that I get confused with Haydn.

Yes there is a superficial similarity to their music coming as it does not only from the same era but the same culture. However the more familiar you become with their music the differences become far more apparent than the similarities. Mozart is a more naturally melodic composer than Haydn and he also tends to have more chromaticism in his music - 'The Dissonance' quartet opening is a good example, the development sections of symphony no.40 (finale) and development section of symphony 41 (1st movement) plus that marvelous late gigue - none of these could possibly have been written by Haydn whose music is more diatonic. Haydn though is generally more experimental - he uses some unusual keys for the time such as C# minor and he often has these contrasts of key between movements within the same work. I also think there is a greater wit in his music than in Mozart - something Beethoven definitely exploited - some examples are the slowing down of the music at the end of symphony no.98 before a sudden rush to the end or the sudden loud chords in symphony no.94 slow movement.
So summing up I'd say that Mozart is really an operatic composer and Haydn more naturally symphonic.

Another weird coupling of composers that is often made is Bruckner and Mahler who are completely different from each other.

[Euan Mackinnon]

Thank you for your various contributions.

From these, the answer to the first of my original questions - Can music be fingerprinted? - seems to be a definite 'Yes'.

My second question was What are the minimum component parts necessary to define a given fingerprint?

Several elements have been proposed.

(In alphabetical order) Bonn1827, Megan, Peter, and Philip have variously suggested (i) Intervals, (ii) Harmony/Instrumentation, (iii) Melody/Note progression, (iv) Rhythm, (v) Register, (vi) Dynamics, and (vii) Keys.

In order to try to keep my ultimate aim - a model to identify musical fingerprinting - as simple as possible, I suggest we attempt to eliminate as much as possible and then see what can be done with what remains.

Taking them one by one, I would like to start with what might turn out to be a contentious candidate for elimination: the key.

Reduced to its bare bones, my argument is this: fingerprints are independent of key. One could take a given score, change the key, play it, and the fingerprint would still be there.

I can develop this argument if anyone wishes or if, as I suspect will be the case, others (strongly) disagree.

Euan

[Sorrano]

I would suggest that some composers may choose specific keys than others, or choose different modes as preferred (major to minor). Beethoven's E-flat compositions tend to stand out and have certain characteristics, such as the 3rd Symphony and the 5th Piano Concerto. They are noble and heroic works. I also think of the dynamic qualities on the earlier E-flat piano sonata, as well, how dynamic it is, etc. These are some thoughts to be wrestled with (and sorry for using a preposition to end a sentence with!)