Questions About Richard Wagner's Ring Opera cycle

[Ed C]

I finally watched the Ring of the Nibelung opera cycle for the first time. It was the James Levine MET 90's one. It was hard to invest 16 hours into a work which I didn't even like that much, but I figured I'd give it a try at least.

In general I was a bit disappointed - with a title like Gotterdammerung I kind of expected a bit more "Gods battling each other to the death"-type action, but oh well. And boy was there alot of recapping...every plot point was recapped at least twice it seemed.

A couple questions about Gotterdammerung:

(spoiler alert)

When Brunnhilde throws herself onto the pyre I get that the ring is purified and returned to the Rhine Maidens with the curse lifted. But why does Valhalla burst into flames? I recall Brunnhilde tells Loge to fly to Valhalla, but if Loge destroyed Valhalla, why didn't he do it any time before this?

The other question is - the Norns in the first act say that Wotan's spear was shattered by a great hero's sword. I assume that was Siegfried. But in "Siegfried" that never happened - at least not on the DVD I saw. So did Siegfried track down the Wanderer and shatter the oath spear off-stage? If so, that's kind of lame - that should have been the opening act....

Opinions and answers?

4/2 Complete String Trios Program

[Sorrano]

My reaction was quite the opposite. When it first aired I watched much of it and was absolutely thrilled with it and ended up buying the DVD's later. As for the first question, as I recall the fire that was burning the funeral pyre spread to Valhalla after Brunnhilde jumped onto it. It's been awhile, so I'm a bit hazy on that. I don't have an answer for the second question.

(Funny you should bring this up as it's been on my mind for the past few days!)

[The Dude]

Congratulations on having the stamina to withstand that entire work. I've never been able to tolerate more than a few of the operatic overtures or "excerpts" from Wagner. No doubt the vocal gymnastics justify the endgame, so to speak, but I find the entire oeuvre of Wagner utterly preposterous and so lacking a sense of humor that it will probably be eventually consumed by its own pyrotechnic self-importance!

[Sorrano]

Congratulations on having the stamina to withstand that entire work. I've never been able to tolerate more than a few of the operatic overtures or "excerpts" from Wagner. No doubt the vocal gymnastics justify the endgame, so to speak, but I find the entire oeuvre of Wagner utterly preposterous and so lacking a sense of humor that it will probably be eventually consumed by its own pyrotechnic self-importance!

Which is pretty much what happens in Gotterdamerung. Interesting analogy....

[Ed C]

Well Dude, I watched the whole thing because I just wanted to find out what the big deal was...I mean - it must have SOME redeeming value otherwise it would be forgotten and it wouldn't cost $500 to see the crazy thing. All I can says is get the 2 CD soundtrack - skip the movie....

Sorrano - I know the flames leapt up, but why would they reach Valhalla? I mean, isn't Valhalla like, really high?

[Sorrano]

I remembered it wrong. This is from wikipedia:

"The fire flares up, and the hall of the Gibichungs catches fire and collapses. The Rhine overflows its banks, quenching the fire, and the Rhinemaidens swim in to claim the ring. Hagen tries to stop them but they drag him into the depths and drown him. As they celebrate the return of the ring and its gold to the river, a red glow is seen in the sky. As the people watch, deeply moved, the interior of Valhalla is finally seen, with gods and heroes visible as described by Waltraute in Act I. Flames flare up in the Hall of the Gods, hiding it and them from sight completely. As the gods are consumed in the flames, the curtain falls."

Apparently it was part of the curse of the ring and when the gold was purified Valhalla was doomed. Remember that Wotan broke his promise to the Giants that built it and that is probably what doomed Valhalla.

[Ed C]

I thought Wotan did give the ring to the giants to pay for building Valhalla, no? The original deal was for the girl (forgot her name, F-something?) but Wotan said, here, take all this gold and this ring instead.

I think your right about the curse being involved. I wish it was a bit clearer - that sudden destruction of Valhalla seemed to be a non-sequitur.

[Sorrano]

Because the ring had been stolen from the Nibelung and then given to the giants when the original contract required Freia Valhalla became cursed as the ring became part of the payment. It is rather confusing . As for the end, it does come a bit sudden, but the orchestral version of Siegried's Death and the Immolation scene work pretty well together.

[Megan]

I don't tend to listen to a lot of Wagner these days, and that's probably my loss.
But my take on the purification is that life does not stand still and yes, the Rhine maidens get the Ring back, but so much has happened in the meantime which can't be glossed over, and there is a terrible price to pay for the redemption of the Ring.
I was always very taken with the terrible scene when Fafner kills his own brother Fasolt, over the ring, and they try to abduct Freia. It is every kind of nightmare of the modern world with man killing man for greed and gain, with also the concupiscence element involved over Freia.
Can't remember about the staff or the sword, but we know Wotan is up to no good carrying the way he does and he brings about a terrible amount of suffering on everyone around him. I do think there is nothing quite like the Ring, but its got to be the kind of thing for people that like that kind of thing.
The very opening bars and the very final bars , I do think are some of the greatest and most astonishing music ever written depicting the beginning of the universe and then a kind of harmony being restored at the end.
But I agree that overall, it is too much to take in and it is overblown in parts.
I often think, how Beethoven would have reacted to the Ring. We know that Beethoven was constantly expanding his horizons and consciousness, but what , oh what would he have made of the Ring, because it is a long, long way from Fidelio.
The subject matter of the Ring itself, with its myths and gigantic structure and really lack of a single human credible figure apart from Siegfried, would have done Beethoven's head in . I think he would have disliked the lack of a human scale in the Ring and its very conscious appeal to myths, which I don't think Beethoven had much time for musically, though we know he did read a bit in this area.

[Sorrano]

Well stated! I've been very much taken regarding all the base emotions and actions of humankind, as depicted in the operas; it is all very dark. The thing that drew me into this, in the first place, was the interplay of leitmotivs throughout the operas, but once visually involved it was very entrancing to me. Unfortunately, I saw parts of each of the operas as the timing was not very good for me so eventually I bought the DVDs when they became available and was able to watch it. (I've been thinking about going through it again!)

[Ed C]

Just briefly - I totally agree with you Megan about the opening of Rhinegold and the Immolation music - great great stuff and ALMOST made the intervening 15 hours worth it. The Rhinegold opening I understand is an homage to B.'s 9th Symphony, the way it starts with that hazy chord?

Still - I found myself doing all kinds of crazy things trying to stay awake during parts of it - checking email, stopping in this forum, jogging in place...watching clips from The Daily Show...

[Megan]

Absolutely Sorrano,
The depths of the Ring are not so much dark as industrially toxic, and I am not sure to be really honest, that it is something for all its brilliance, that somebody wants to be spending a lot of time with for long periods. This was the point often made by the late Bernard Levin, who was a very gifted critic and lover of Wagner's music. Musicologists have said that the Opera just couldn't be developed any further than it was taken by Wagner, who took it to braking point and beyond, and it is a long, long way from Orfeo!
Not to put a downer on ourselves here, but just to be honest and by way of a parallel, we had Gilbert and Sullivan at this time, and the Germans had Wagner! But then we could say, yes, but look what it led to.

[Peter]

I don't tend to listen to a lot of Wagner these days, and that's probably my loss.
But my take on the purification is that life does not stand still and yes, the Rhine maidens get the Ring back, but so much has happened in the meantime which can't be glossed over, and there is a terrible price to pay for the redemption of the Ring.
I was always very taken with the terrible scene when Fafner kills his own brother Fasolt, over the ring, and they try to abduct Freia. It is every kind of nightmare of the modern world with man killing man for greed and gain, with also the concupiscence element involved over Freia.
Can't remember about the staff or the sword, but we know Wotan is up to no good carrying the way he does and he brings about a terrible amount of suffering on everyone around him. I do think there is nothing quite like the Ring, but its got to be the kind of thing for people that like that kind of thing.
The very opening bars and the very final bars , I do think are some of the greatest and most astonishing music ever written depicting the beginning of the universe and then a kind of harmony being restored at the end.
But I agree that overall, it is too much to take in and it is overblown in parts.
I often think, how Beethoven would have reacted to the Ring. We know that Beethoven was constantly expanding his horizons and consciousness, but what , oh what would he have made of the Ring, because it is a long, long way from Fidelio.
The subject matter of the Ring itself, with its myths and gigantic structure and really lack of a single human credible figure apart from Siegfried, would have done Beethoven's head in . I think he would have disliked the lack of a human scale in the Ring and its very conscious appeal to myths, which I don't think Beethoven had much time for musically, though we know he did read a bit in this area.

Well he wrote the ballet Prometheus, but that said I'm doubt the subject matter of the Ring would have appealed to Beethoven - can you actually imagine those two meeting?

[Ed C]

OK - after doing a little reading I have been able to figure out the answers to my initial questions. I just finished reading P. Craig Russell's graphic novel adaptation and in it he fills in all the blanks. It's alot easier to do "flashbacks" in a graphic novel....

Concerning the shattering of Wotan's spear: The Wanderer/Wotan stops Siegrfied just before Siegfried traverses the flames to reach Brunnhilde. Now in the dvd I have, Wotan lets him pass without a battle - I think they exchanged some nasty words, that's it. In the adaptation I just read, Wotan admits that his spear is the one that shattered Nothung and so Siegfried cries "Then You killed my father!" and then smashes the spear. Wotan flies off.

Wotan returns to Valhalla with the broken spear shards and tells Donner, Froh and the gang to chop up the World Ash tree and pile the lumber around the sacred hall of Valhalla. Then he sits around brooding waiting for the end of the World (which at this point he welcomes).

In the prologue of Gotterdammerung the Norns foretell Wotan driving a spear shard into a person's chest and bringing forth sparks....very mysterious. During the opera I though this was an event from the past - but it was actually a prophecy of the future!

So...FF to the end - Brunnhilde tells Wotan's ravens to tell their master what has happened (his grandson Siegfried is dead, and his daughter is about to immolate herself). Then Brunnhilde burns herself, the Gibichung palace crumbles, the ring returns to the Rhinemaidens, etc....

Now - and this is off camera and purely implied by preceding dialogue - the ravens fly back to Valhalla, but on the way at the rock of Brunnhilde's slumber they pick up Loge (as per Brunnhilde's instructions). Wotan hears the news from the ravens, he picks up the tip of his shattered spear and plunges it into Loge's chest. Loge (being a fire spirit) catches fire/explodes. Wotan picks up Loge and hurls him onto the chopped up lumber from the World Ash Tree. Valhalla is consumed in flames.

Anyways loved this graphic novel adaptation. Highly recommended. I think all my plot questions were answered pretty well.

[Ed C]

Well he wrote the ballet Prometheus, but that said I'm doubt the subject matter of the Ring would have appealed to Beethoven - can you actually imagine those two meeting?

haha - Peter have you read Wagner's "story" - "My Visit to Beethoven"?

When I first read it I thought it was a true account. But then I was informed it was just a fiction.

http://scriabin.com/etude/1910/08/a-trip-to-the-shrine-of-beethoven.html