Concerto and sonata parallels

[Peter]

Working through the Appassionata I'm struck by several passages that are very similar to the piano writing in the 4th piano concerto - this also occurs with Les Adieux and the Emperor concerto, similar passage work in both works. Anyone else noticed this?

[Chris]

Working through the Appassionata I'm struck by several passages that are very similar to the piano writing in the 4th piano concerto - this also occurs with Les Adieux and the Emperor concerto, similar passage work in both works. Anyone else noticed this?

I have noticed it in the Appassionata and 4th piano concerto. It's odd, because I have never played either of those works, but I have played (at least some of) the Les Adieux and the Emperor concerto, but never really noticed similar passages there.

It makes sense, though, because the Appassionata and 4th piano concerto were written about the same time, as were the Les Adieux and the Emperor concerto.

[Peter]

The similarities in Les Adieux and the Emperor are in the piano writing of the finales. I pointed it out because as you say they were written at the same time, but I'm not sure that 'it makes sense' that he would use very similar figurations in these works just because of that.

[Roehre]

The similarities in Les Adieux and the Emperor are in the piano writing of the finales. I pointed it out because as you say they were written at the same time, but I'm not sure that 'it makes sense' that he would use very similar figurations in these works just because of that.

We cannot know how the sketches for op.57 and 58 were related, as the sketchbook in which these must have been jotted down has disappeared.

That however doesn't apply to the finale of the "Emperor" and "Les Adieux":
the sketches for op.73/iii are found the Landsberg 5 sketchbook pp.13-39, those for op.81a/i on 42-45, with only a few ultimately abandoned sketches for a "Jubelsang" between them.

[Chris]

The similarities in Les Adieux and the Emperor are in the piano writing of the finales. I pointed it out because as you say they were written at the same time, but I'm not sure that 'it makes sense' that he would use very similar figurations in these works just because of that.

I've played the Les Adieux finale, but not the Emperor finale. But now that you say that, I think I know just what you are referring to.

But I think it makes sense that pieces composed at around the same time for the same instrument would have similar passages. You have certain ideas going around in your head, a certain style you are playing with, certain patterns under your fingers as you are messing around on the keyboard. It's no stretch to think these things would work their way into two compositions, especially for an instrument with which the composer was so familiar.

[Peter]

I've played the Les Adieux finale, but not the Emperor finale. But now that you say that, I think I know just what you are referring to.

But I think it makes sense that pieces composed at around the same time for the same instrument would have similar passages. You have certain ideas going around in your head, a certain style you are playing with, certain patterns under your fingers as you are messing around on the keyboard. It's no stretch to think these things would work their way into two compositions, especially for an instrument with which the composer was so familiar.

Well that's obviously what happened but Beethoven frequently worked simultaneously on pieces and I can't immediately think of other similar examples. His imagination was such that he rarely repeated himself and each of the 32 sonatas for instance are totally unique.

[Chris]

Perhaps in this case he got ideas that he wanted to try in both sonata and concerto and wasn't willing to give one of them up, and he figured that the different contexts justified it.

[Roehre]

.... Beethoven frequently worked simultaneously on pieces ...

Not really. It only rarely happens, mostly when a commission with a set deadline arrived at a time another project had made some progress already, and therefore had to be interrupted.
Even the 5th and 6th symphonies were not really composed simultaneously.

The sketchbooks show that Beethoven generally speaking was working/sketching one work at a time.

Basically he started with basic ideas (sometimes browsing the sketchbook for usable ones), shaping these into themes, arranging these bits into a kind of continuity draft and then writing the score (with this continuity draft quite often in pencil at the bottom of orchestral scores).

Obviously we find non-related sketches sometimes interspersed, but these are relatively rare.

Note that Beethoven stopped working on compositions, leaving them unfinished at any of these stages.
So we've got stand alone and therefore unidentifiable sketches, relatively developed but unused themes (10th symphony), continuity drafts which didn't materialize into full scores (symphony in c), and scores which eventually weren't finished (a concertante with flute and oboe, a pre-first symphony in C, a third Sonata-quasi-Fantasia for the op.27-set, a triple-concerto in D, a piano concerto in F are the best examples).

Therefore it is IMO more important to look at compositions which were sketched/composed in immediate succession.

[Ed C]

Well that's obviously what happened but Beethoven frequently worked simultaneously on pieces and I can't immediately think of other similar examples.

The Archduke Trio has some similar motivic material to Op 59.1, but it's different enough that it doesn't bother me. Not sure how close in time those two were composed...

Here's an interesting parallel:

Seufzer eines Ungeliebten - Gegenlieb

Sounds like the tune from a certain "Ode to Joy", right? Or a choral fantasy of sorts...

[Roehre]

The Archduke Trio has some similar motivic material to Op 59.1, but it's different enough that it doesn't bother me. Not sure how close in time those two were composed...

Here's an interesting parallel:

Seufzer eines Ungeliebten - Gegenliebe

Sounds like the tune from a certain "Ode to Joy", right? Or a choral fantasy of sorts...

Seufzer... is the theme for the Choral Fantasia op.80.
One of the examples where Beethoven used older, existing material for new compositions.
Some other examples: the Turkish March from the Ruins of Athen op.113 from the theme of the variations opus 76, or the theme of the Eroica's finale, used twice previously as countrydance from WoO14 and the finale of Prometheus op.43.

similarities between themes (showing the general design of many of Beethoven's themes):
opening of op.29i - ditto op.59/1i - op.61i- 2nd theme op.67i

[Peter]

Not really. It only rarely happens, mostly when a commission with a set deadline arrived at a time another project had made some progress already, and therefore had to be interrupted.
Even the 5th and 6th symphonies were not really composed simultaneously.

The sketchbooks show that Beethoven generally speaking was working/sketching one work at a time.

Basically he started with basic ideas (sometimes browsing the sketchbook for usable ones), shaping these into themes, arranging these bits into a kind of continuity draft and then writing the score (with this continuity draft quite often in pencil at the bottom of orchestral scores).

Obviously we find non-related sketches sometimes interspersed, but these are relatively rare.

Note that Beethoven stopped working on compositions, leaving them unfinished at any of these stages.
So we've got stand alone and therefore unidentifiable sketches, relatively developed but unused themes (10th symphony), continuity drafts which didn't materialize into full scores (symphony in c), and scores which eventually weren't finished (a concertante with flute and oboe, a pre-first symphony in C, a third Sonata-quasi-Fantasia for the op.27-set, a triple-concerto in D, a piano concerto in F are the best examples).

Therefore it is IMO more important to look at compositions which were sketched/composed in immediate succession.

(April 22, 1801, to the publisher Hofmeister, in Leipzig.)
"Correspondence, as you know, was never my forte; some of my
best friends have not had a letter from me in years. I live only
in my notes (compositions), and one is scarcely finished when
another is begun. As I am working now I often compose three,
even four, pieces simultaneously."

(Vienna, June 29, 1800, to Wegeler, in Bonn.)
"I never write a work continuously, without interruption. I am
always working on several at the same time, taking up one, then
another."

[Roehre]

(April 22, 1801, to the publisher Hofmeister, in Leipzig.)
"Correspondence, as you know, was never my forte; some of my
best friends have not had a letter from me in years. I live only
in my notes (compositions), and one is scarcely finished when
another is begun. As I am working now I often compose three,
even four, pieces simultaneously."

(Vienna, June 29, 1800, to Wegeler, in Bonn.)
"I never write a work continuously, without interruption. I am
always working on several at the same time, taking up one, then
another."

I am afraid Beethoven was more than once quite economical with the truth in his letters. Like telling there is a complete (tenth) symphony in his drawer, that the ordered string quartet will be sent coming week (it wasn't even skeched that moment), that one is the only publisher to whom a work has been offered (the Missa solemnis, offered to 6 publishers and eventually published by a seventh)....

The sketchbooks simply don't confirm what Beethoven was telling people regarding his compositional procedures.
Quite often Beethoven was not only working extensively on one specific work, but even on one movement within that work only. One can follow this process through nearly all his surviving sketches.

[Ed C]

I am afraid Beethoven was more than once quite economical with the truth in his letters....that one is the only publisher to whom a work has been offered (the Missa solemnis, offered to 6 publishers and eventually published by a seventh)....

I love the story about the Missa Solemnis solicitations! I think I've read most of the extant letters B. sent out. Here's a guy who railed against being bootlegged and pirated - and then he says "well if you can't beat em, join em". "Beethoven, The Man who Freed Music" - indeed...

[Peter]

I am afraid Beethoven was more than once quite economical with the truth in his letters. Like telling there is a complete (tenth) symphony in his drawer, that the ordered string quartet will be sent coming week (it wasn't even skeched that moment), that one is the only publisher to whom a work has been offered (the Missa solemnis, offered to 6 publishers and eventually published by a seventh)....

The sketchbooks simply don't confirm what Beethoven was telling people regarding his compositional procedures.
Quite often Beethoven was not only working extensively on one specific work, but even on one movement within that work only. One can follow this process through nearly all his surviving sketches.

I don't agree because you're forgetting that he would mull over ideas in his head for long periods before writing them down, sometimes years. Nor do I think you can really use his dealings over the Missa as evidence to refute his words, shady dealings with publishers are not the same as writing to an intimate friend. I think as he got older the process of composition did change in that his memory probably was less reliable.

[Hofrat]

There is a striking similarity between Beethoven's "Overture to King Stephen" (second theme of the overture proper) and his 9th symphony (the "ode" theme).