Who are the greatest composers for the voice?

[Peter]

Great topic, tho I have to admit I share Michael's sentiments - I personally much prefer instrumental music (this, despite the fact that my wife is a singer!).

Having said that:

Pre-20th C.
Beethoven (ex. Mephistos Flohleid)
Cherubini (ex. Medea)
Rossini
Schubert (ex. The Wanderer)

20th Century
Gorecki (ex. Sorrowful Songs)
Debussy (ex. Fantoches)
Kurt Weill (ex Alabama Song)
Ligeti: "Lux aeterna"
Ravel
Schoenberg (Pierrot Lunaire)

I'd have to include Richard Strauss Four last songs - if there is one work of his I wouldn't be without it is this.

[Preston]

I think in truth it comes down to personal preference, other than the "mainstream". I do not understand the voice or the part it plays in all its precision, or the piano for that matter or the orchestra. Which I imagine all instruments are "looked at", understood, heard, etc. are somewhat (and usually quite) different for each composer.

Though personally, if I had to name the composers whose writing for voice I have most enjoyed it would be Mussorgsky, Beethoven, and Bach. I thought of Mozart because I have listened to a lot of his a fair portion of his voice writing (I even have a CD, "Mozart's Greatest Arias", though in truth I find a lot of Mozart to be too happy, energetic, too pretty and lustful for my taste, unrealistic, etc. Except for his Requiem - that, imo, is an unimaginable masterpiece.

I think it is, as Sorrano mentioned in another thread, wholly about the individual composer's perspective of the orchestra.

[Roehre]

I'd have to include Richard Strauss Four last songs - if there is one work of his I wouldn't be without it is this.

These 4 Letzte Lieder are among my absolute favourites. However: if the title of this thread is meant to mean that the vocal parts have to be written comfortably for the voice as well as being beautifully crafted, then these 4LL have to be excluded I'm afraid. These are extremely difficult to realize for the soprano, especially because of the length of the phrases (one of the reasons Schwartzkopf used to include these in her master classes).

[Michael]

This of course raises up the old riddle: which is better, the music or its performance. Many people will tell you that Bach or Beethoven did not write gracefully for the human voice, but the quality of the music outweighs its performability. (I find I am inventing words today which is a reflection on my limited vocabulary).
But maybe those composers were waiting for the day when the ability of the singers would match their compositions. Beethoven certainly felt this way about his piano music - he often remarked that it was for a future generation.
Maybe we have to eschew comfort in favour of the sublime. We certainly have to do it in the finale of the Ninth Symphony and in parts of the Missa Solemnis.

[Preston]

This of course raises up the old riddle: which is better, the music or its performance. Many people will tell you that Bach or Beethoven did not write gracefully for the human voice, but the quality of the music outweighs its performability. (I find I am inventing words today which is a reflection on my limited vocabulary).
But maybe those composers were waiting for the day when the ability of the singers would match their compositions. Beethoven certainly felt this way about his piano music - he often remarked that it was for a future generation.
Maybe we have to eschew comfort in favour of the sublime. We certainly have to do it in the finale of the Ninth Symphony and in parts of the Missa Solemnis.

Your post makes me think of a line from the film's "BBC: The Genius (as I like to put it, ) of Beethoven.

Basically, Charles Hazlewood said (whether it was in the script or he thought it himself, I do not know) that during one part (maybe somewhere in the Credo?) of the Missa Solemnis, Beethoven makes the choir sing a very challenging - almost not possible - part. He then states that "he" believes that Beethoven did this because it is what the divine ask of us - to challenge sin and to give our all to the divine powers (if you will) - which is an extreme challenge, and takes the most of us.

[Michael]

Your post makes me think of a line from the film's "BBC: The Genius (as I like to put it, ) of Beethoven.

Basically, Charles Hazlewood said (whether it was in the script or he thought it himself, I do not know) that during one part (maybe somewhere in the Credo?) of the Missa Solemnis, Beethoven makes the choir sing a very challenging - almost not possible - part. He then states that "he" believes that Beethoven did this because it is what the divine ask of us - to challenge sin and to give our all to the divine powers (if you will) - which is an extreme challenge, and takes the most of us.

Yes, Preston, a lot of Beethoven's music seems to push beyond the limits of what is possible (or performable?). Many people have found the orchestration of the Grosse Fuge to be lacking in something. I think that something is the element of strain which is imposed on the members of a string quartet.
Of course, this concept of strain can be exaggerated. The Missa Solemnis and the finale of the Ninth Symphony can be negotiated very well by today's performers but we must remember that the pitch of music was lower in Beethoven's day (I don't remember offhand by how much - maybe a semitone- maybe more). I wonder if the HIP devotees bear that in mind.

[Preston]

I remembered his words, "borderline unsingable" ("almost not possible" - close enough, ).

Which, it seems to me, should show us how well Beethoven understood what the human voice was not only capable of, but was?

For those interested I found the part of the movie I was referring to on YT, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FwWqSm6zNk - (6:30). The part I was talking about is apparently a fugue at the end of the Credo - where the choir sings "I wait for the life of the world to come". Either way, it is a good watch.

[Peter]

These 4 Letzte Lieder are among my absolute favourites. However: if the title of this thread is meant to mean that the vocal parts have to be written comfortably for the voice as well as being beautifully crafted, then these 4LL have to be excluded I'm afraid. These are extremely difficult to realize for the soprano, especially because of the length of the phrases (one of the reasons Schwartzkopf used to include these in her master classes).

Yes absolutely Roehre there are two ways of looking at the question - the same would be true of asking about the greatest composers for keyboard; Beethoven and Bach wrote the greatest collection of works for the genre but it is uncomfortable for the hands and awkward to play. In the practical sense, Chopin has to me the greatest writer for keyboard for he was the one who had the greatest technical understanding of the piano.

In his response to the question, Preston lists Bach, Beethoven and Mussorgsky who yes wrote great vocal music but not in a naturally vocal style as did Handel, Mozart and Tchaikovsky who were primarily 'melodic' rather than 'structural' composers.

[Chris]

In the practical sense, Chopin has to me the greatest writer for keyboard for he was the one who had the greatest technical understanding of the piano.

Greater than Liszt, do you think?

[Peter]

Greater than Liszt, do you think?

Yes in that he combined a practical virtuosity with high musical content - Liszt often wrote vacuous pieces sheerly for virtuoso display, though admittedly there are outstanding exceptions in his output such as the Totentanz and I think the B minor sonata, but his level is rarely that high.

[Roehre]

.... Liszt often wrote vacuous pieces sheerly for virtuoso display, though admittedly there are outstanding exceptions in his output such as the Totentanz and I think the B minor sonata, but his level is rarely that high.

Now able to browse through his complete output for piano, I now tend more to the opposite view, that admittedly there are vacuous pieces in his output -like the opera paraphrases e.g.- but that his level is generally not much less that that of the Totentanz and the piano sonata.

But I must say that I until quite recently I shared your opinion re Liszt, Peter.

[Ed C]

Not long ago I wrote about Liszt's transcriptions of many of Beethoven's lieder and a chamber work or two (besides the symphonies of course).

Below is Liszt's piano arrangement of "Adelaide" (yes, that one again):
Beethoven-Liszt-Adelaide,op46

I don't think any of these will replace Totentanz but they are kind of interesting, especially his "Fantasy on Beethoven's Ruins of Athens".


3/31 The "Ghost" Piano Trio (Color Analysis)

[Peter]

Not long ago I wrote about Liszt's transcriptions of many of Beethoven's lieder and a chamber work or two (besides the symphonies of course).

Below is Liszt's piano arrangement of "Adelaide" (yes, that one again):
Beethoven-Liszt-Adelaide,op46

I don't think any of these will replace Totentanz but they are kind of interesting, especially his "Fantasy on Beethoven's Ruins of Athens".


3/31 The "Ghost" Piano Trio (Color Analysis)

Liszt's transcriptions are a neglected part of his work now due to the availability of recordings of the originals, but he did much to popularise the songs of Schubert for example.