Beethoven and his Beloveds

[MCS]

Originally posted by Rod:
It is not my belief,

Whew, glad to hear you don't really believe it!
...it is a hard fact,

Please point out which is the hard fact and which is the fiction.

you obviously are totally unaware of European history.

How can you be so sure I am "totally" unaware of European history? Are you "totally aware" yourself??

There were massacres galore in medieval times.

Yes there were, of all types, throughout human history. Terrible, but how is this relevant here?

Popes were far more political figures then, always ordering fighting, the slaughter of non believers or sects that gerenerally didn't follow the Church's line, and getting up to other mischief.

"...always ordering fighting...slaughter of non-believers... "

Rather overstated, don't you think? Or were you just going for effect?
And, by the way, what does any of this have to do with Beethoven's religious beliefs?

[This message has been edited by MCS (edited 09-03-2001).]

[MCS]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
Probably the most inherrently religious composer of all was J.S.Bach - a Protestant - why does it have to be Catholic belief? you can be Christian and non-Catholic!

True, but it's not impossible to be a Catholic and write masses either.
...
All Rod and I have done is to point out the known facts re. Beethoven's attitude to God, Christ and religion -

Other than the fact that he was baptised in the Catholic Church, received the Last Rites of the same church and had a quote referring to a deity from an Egyptian obelisk on his desk, what exactly do you know of his beliefs?

...our own personal beliefs are nothing to do with the debate!

Oh no? Is that why, way back on page 1 of this thread, Rod posted that "every bishop seems to have at least one love child or he 'likes' little boys..etc,etc"?

Healthy debate about Beethoven's beliefs and mud-slinging are two different things.

Mary

[Peter]

Originally posted by MCS:
Other than the fact that he was baptised in the Catholic Church, received the Last Rites of the same church and had a quote referring to a deity from an Egyptian obelisk on his desk, what exactly do you know of his beliefs?

I've stated more than that in my replies and I'm not going to repeat myself. From what I've read most Beethoven authorities would agree with what Rod and I are saying. Here is a view from "Beethoven: the Man and the Artist, as Revealed in his own Words"
edited by Friedrich Kerst and Henry Edward Krehbiel -

Beethoven was through and through a religious man, though not in
the confessional sense. Reared in the Catholic faith he early
attained to an independent opinion on religious things. It must
be borne in mind that his youth fell in the period of
enlightenment and rationalism. When at a later date he composed
the grand Mass in honor of his esteemed pupil Archduke Rudolph,--
he hoped to obtain from him a chapelmastership when the Archduke
became Archbishop of Olmutz, but in vain,--he gave it forms and
dimensions which deviated from the ritual.

Do you disagree with this then?


Healthy debate about Beethoven's beliefs and mud-slinging are two different things.

Mary

On such an emotive topic people are going to find it hard not to express their own strongly held views but I agree with you which is why I've tried to steer the debate away from personal view points on Religion - a topic that only leads to wars!


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by MCS:
"...always ordering fighting...slaughter of non-believers... "

Rather overstated, don't you think? Or were you just going for effect?
And, by the way, what does any of this have to do with Beethoven's religious beliefs?

Not overstated at all, why do you think the current Pope has had to appologise to a number of European countries for the persecution of non-catholics in those states in years gone by? Persecution that had its origins squarely in the Vatican. The matter is not wholely relevant to B's beliefs, but it may be part of the reason for explaining the Enlightenment (and thus B's) rejection of religious doctrine. Read Thayer/Forbes and Schindler on the matter. I don't know what Solomon has to say.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not overstated at all, why do you think the current Pope has had to appologise to a number of European countries for the persecution of non-catholics in those states in years gone by? Persecution that had its origins squarely in the Vatican. The matter is not wholely relevant to B's beliefs, but it may be part of the reason for explaining the Enlightenment (and thus B's) rejection of religious doctrine. Read Thayer/Forbes and Schindler on the matter. I don't know what Solomon has to say.

This is true - Beethoven cannot have been ignorant of these facts, such as one Pope ordering the execution of his predecessor during the Great Schism and another sanctioning the Spanish Inquisiton. Torture was fully endorsed by many Popes of this era as a means of getting their own way. Come the Enlightenment, open minded people were questioning such things.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
This is true - Beethoven cannot have been ignorant of these facts, such as one Pope ordering the execution of his predecessor during the Great Schism and another sanctioning the Spanish Inquisiton. Torture was fully endorsed by many Popes of this era as a means of getting their own way. Come the Enlightenment, open minded people were questioning such things.

Hence my comments so far were, if anything, an understatement of history. However, don't think we are into simple Catholic bashing here, in Medieval times especially, every King, Queen and his/her dog were sanctioning murder or some sort or another, or were themselves being muredered. Heck my own daughter was baptised a Catholic! (don't ask me how, its just one of the many painful paradoxes that have made up my worthless existance!).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Hence my comments so far were, if anything, an understatement of history. However, don't think we are into simple Catholic bashing here, in Medieval times especially, every King, Queen and his/her dog were sanctioning murder or some sort or another, or were themselves being muredered.

Well that's also true, but really getting off topic! What we're trying to establish is Beethoven's own views and why he held them. I suggest that knowing the History of the Church may have been a possible reason for his more open minded approach to his faith.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well that's also true, but really getting off topic!

I was not off topic, I was attempting to pacify the Catholic contingent. Lest they order an English Inquisition!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

If Beethoven really understood the history of the Church, he would have seen a history full of compassion and mercy, with a few incidents of evil men doing evil deeds. And even if he didn't, then what he should have realized is that the Church was never meant to be a political body, and any time it acted as such, it was prone to all the errors of any other political body. The Church is a religious body, and any judgments on its validity must be made from a religious context. And it seems to me that that is exactly what he did, actually. I don't see anything that really tells me he was concerned with the history of it all, just the beliefs and practices.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 09-03-2001).]

[MCS]

Originally posted by Peter:

I've stated more than that in my replies and I'm not going to repeat myself. From what I've read most Beethoven authorities would agree with what Rod and I are saying. Here is a view from "Beethoven: the Man and the Artist, as Revealed in his own Words"
edited by Friedrich Kerst and Henry Edward Krehbiel -

Beethoven was through and through a religious man, though not in
the confessional sense. Reared in the Catholic faith he early
attained to an independent opinion on religious things. It must
be borne in mind that his youth fell in the period of
enlightenment and rationalism. When at a later date he composed
the grand Mass in honor of his esteemed pupil Archduke Rudolph,--
he hoped to obtain from him a chapelmastership when the Archduke
became Archbishop of Olmutz, but in vain,--he gave it forms and
dimensions which deviated from the ritual.

Do you disagree with this then?

[/B]

Thank you Peter but what I asked for was what did Beethoven actually say about his beliefs. Many others seem to have said a great deal about what he thought, or what they believe he thought. You did earlier quote something from some eastern source about God being invisible, omnipotent, etc. But that doesn't mean that he held any other beliefs of eastern religions. All I'm saying is that we have to look at what he said and did himself and not what biographers, no matter how venerable, say that he believed or felt or thought. (Unless, of course, they can back their opinions up with quotes from the man himself.)

And, by the way, how did he 'deviate from the ritual' in the Missa Solemnis?

Mary

[MCS]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not overstated at all, why do you think the current Pope has had to appologise to a number of European countries for the persecution of non-catholics in those states in years gone by? ...

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I haven't yet heard any apologies for persecutions of Catholics. (The British crown may wish to start the ball rolling.)

Mary

[MCS]

Originally posted by Rod:
I was not off topic, I was attempting to pacify the Catholic contingent. Lest they order an English Inquisition!

What a capital idea!! Bring on the rack and thumb-screws...I'll e-mail JPII in the morning with the suggestion.

Mary

[Chris]

You know - this thead makes me think we should have an archive for very successful topics. Topics with many posts and things like that should probably live on. Also, maybe we could archive topics that answer a lot of frequently asked questions. What does every one think of that idea?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
You know - this thead makes me think we should have an archive for very successful topics. Topics with many posts and things like that should probably live on. Also, maybe we could archive topics that answer a lot of frequently asked questions. What does every one think of that idea?

Good idea! There are at least 10 pages of topics now, and I'm sure most people never look back at the old ones (myself included) so perhaps archiving some would be sensible. Another idea, with all the info available how about writing a book!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by MCS:
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I haven't yet heard any apologies for persecutions of Catholics. (The British crown may wish to start the ball rolling.)

Mary

I hinted at this in my last posting, but in the case of Britain I believe Catholics were (in some places still are!) seen as traitors, largely thanks to the encouragement from the Vatican for the attempts to overthrow the new Protestant royal line. Thus the persecution here was more a political struggle than a religious one (though I suspect all religious struggles are ultimately political for those in postions of power). Catholosim was a far greater force in mainland Europe. Getting back off topic again here I think! I suggest if you want to persue the matter further you write to me personally!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin