Beethoven and his Beloveds

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
Perhaps you do not know European history as well as you think. There was never more than one pope at any time. Oh yes, there were plenty of bishops claiming to be pope, but there was only one validly selected pope. And of course, the "sins" commited by popes prove nothing other than that those popes were evil men. That is no surprise - there are plenty of evil men in the world. The only thing the papacy is assured of being perfect in, according to the Church, is formally declaring teachings on faith and morals. And those evil popes were hardly interested in doing that. That is what I meant when I said it has nothing to do with anything. My comment was totally relevent to Beethoven, yours was not. Now enough with all of this. I have just purchased a new set of the piano concertos, and I mean to go enjoy it now.

And now for something completely different, (as Monty Python would say). Not to change the subject (or maybe I do intend to change the subject), Chris, may I ask what piano sonatas did you purchase? By whom?? Etc.....How did you like them?

Joy

[Peter]

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne! Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen und freudenvollere!

Slight reminder that this debate can be continued at the no doubt many religious forums that exist. Meanwhile back to our beloved Master here, LVB, who will probably be having a good old laugh over this along with all the Bishops of Rome - I know one thing I believe, and that is that B was the greatest composer ever to have walked the Earth regardless of his religious views!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

May I say "Amen" to that??

Joy

[stout]

I really would like to thank you all for responding so much to my small question. I hate to ask this again, but do anyone of you know where I may find a portrait of Beethoven and the Delacroix portrait of Chopin?
Regards

*Peter, if I may-If you know of some shop write down the address please.

Thanks

STOUT

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
You make me laugh Chris.

And you make me laugh, Rod! Nevertheless, this is not a religious debate - it is about religious issues in relation to Beethoven. If it turns into a pure religious debate, we will close the thread, for that would be off-topic discussion.

And it wasn't the sonatas that I bought, it was the concertos. I haven't listened to the whole set yet, but when I do, I'll make a review thread. (I think the set may well be on the recommended recordings list on this site.) I also bought a Mozart opera (Figaro), but I didn't think anyone would care too much about that here! Maybe I'll mention that in my review as well. I didn't know this, but the Figaro I bought was used in a movie - The Shawshank Redemption. (I love that movie, too.)

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 08-31-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
I also bought a Mozart opera (Figaro), but I didn't think anyone would care too much about that here! Maybe I'll mention that in my review as well.

They should because Figaro is a masterpiece and it's quite amazing how Mozart got away with it, considering the sensitivity of the times.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
And you make me laugh, Rod! Nevertheless, this is not a religious debate - it is about religious issues in relation to Beethoven. If it turns into a pure religious debate, we will close the thread, for that would be off-topic discussion.

How ironic, considering you yourself were happy to go 'off topic'. When I moderated this topic, in days of old, the anarchist in me allowed this 'off topic' debate to continue until one guy went totally crazy, as can happen to religious types (no, it was not Peter! But Peter will remember this story well). Which one of us do you think would crack first Chris?

Back 'on topic', B's unconventional religious attitude was noted at the time, indeed Schindler made much of this in his bigraphy on Beethoven. I am simply voicing the well established consensus amongst writers on the matter. I was looking for any contemporary evidence to contradict the accepted notion. Considering none has been presented the not unreasonable status quo must prevail. Personal religious perspectives cannot be allowed to cloud the issue. Finito.




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
O Freunde, nicht diese Töne! Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen und freudenvollere!

Slight reminder that this debate can be continued at the no doubt many religious forums that exist. Meanwhile back to our beloved Master here, LVB, who will probably be having a good old laugh over this along with all the Bishops of Rome - I know one thing I believe, and that is that B was the greatest composer ever to have walked the Earth regardless of his religious views!

How moderate, moderator.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
How ironic, considering you yourself were happy to go 'off topic'. When I moderated this topic, in days of old, the anarchist in me allowed this 'off topic' debate to continue until one guy went totally crazy, as can happen to religious types (no, it was not Peter! But Peter will remember this story well). Which one of us do you think would crack first Chris?

Back 'on topic', B's unconventional religious attitude was noted at the time, indeed Schindler made much of this in his bigraphy on Beethoven. I am simply voicing the well established consensus amongst writers on the matter. I was looking for any contemporary evidence to contradict the accepted notion. Considering none has been presented the not unreasonable status quo must prevail. Personal religious perspectives cannot be allowed to cloud the issue. Finito.

1. Why should anybody crack?

2. I only went off-topic to resond to your off-topic posts.

3. I never said Beethoven was a standard Catholic - I have, in fact, said the opposite. I have only (a) posed a question regarding why he would compose masses and (b) questioned your specifics on the issue, which were not satisfactory to me (i.e. reading and quoting from non-Christian texts).

4. It seems to me that you are the one letting personal religious perpectives get in the way. If Beethoven was totally non-Christian, it's nothing to me. But it seems as though you cannot stand to have your musical hero have any sort of Catholic belief at all, only because you do not. (And yes, I know you will deny that, so don't bother responding - consider it denied.) And you have used the issue to stray into totally unrelated discussion on the terrible things done by popes of the past. A fine thing to discuss, but not here. It's just not relevent to the discussion. If you like, I'll create another forum and you can debate Catholicism until you're blue in the face. But that's, like Peter said, for another forum.

[Peter]

Originally posted by stout:
I really would like to thank you all for responding so much to my small question. I hate to ask this again, but do anyone of you know where I may find a portrait of Beethoven and the Delacroix portrait of Chopin?
Regards

*Peter, if I may-If you know of some shop write down the address please.

Thanks

STOUT

I'll enquire at my local shop for you next week - they may be able to help and they do have a mail order service.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

And speaking of this thread - 100th REPLY!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:

If Beethoven was totally non-Christian, it's nothing to me. But it seems as though you cannot stand to have your musical hero have any sort of Catholic belief at all, only because you do not.

Probably the most inherrently religious composer of all was J.S.Bach - a Protestant - why does it have to be Catholic belief? you can be Christian and non-Catholic!

As has been said Beethoven's views seem to have encompassed a wide range of sources, he had a strong belief in God and this comes through not just in the religious works, but the 9th and the Gellert songs.

All Rod and I have done is to point out the known facts re. Beethoven's attitude to God, Christ and religion - our own personal beliefs are nothing to do with the debate!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
1. Why should anybody crack?

Not sure, but it happens when this topic is discussed.

Originally posted by Chris:

2. I only went off-topic to resond to your off-topic posts.

I was generally ok with the off topic discusion, but I think I kept it more relevant than some of the other remarks. Discussing the activities of the church after B's time, (which is what you were doing) is more off topic than its activities before B's time. Based on your own remarks I'm sure the current Pope is rather more enlightened that those up to the time of the Enlightenment, which is the only time to be considered with this issue.

Originally posted by Chris:

3. I never said Beethoven was a standard Catholic - I have, in fact, said the opposite. I have only (a) posed a question regarding why he would compose masses and (b) questioned your specifics on the issue, which were not satisfactory to me (i.e. reading and quoting from non-Christian texts).

Ok, the answer to a) is the Mass in C was a commission and the Solemn Mass was originally intended for Rudolfs inauguration. The fact that Bach was an devout Lutheren did not prevent him from composing to only Mass considered worthy to be spoken of in the same sentance as the Missa Solemnis.

Regarding b) I suggested it would be unusual for a run-of-the-mill Christian of any kind to be interested in Pagan texts at this time, and almost never discussing Jesus apart from questioning his immortal origins. Make of it what you will.

Originally posted by Chris:

4. It seems to me that you are the one letting personal religious perpectives get in the way. If Beethoven was totally non-Christian, it's nothing to me. But it seems as though you cannot stand to have your musical hero have any sort of Catholic belief at all, only because you do not. (And yes, I know you will deny that, so don't bother responding - consider it denied.) And you have used the issue to stray into totally unrelated discussion on the terrible things done by popes of the past. A fine thing to discuss, but not here. It's just not relevent to the discussion. If you like, I'll create another forum and you can debate Catholicism until you're blue in the face. But that's, like Peter said, for another forum.

Well, I said the God of Beethoven would be to a large extent that of Christianity, but without some of the fancifull ideas expressed by his own Church and indeed the New Testament itself - a not unusual position for an Enlightened intellectual. I did not rule his interest in Jesus out per se, I also suggested that B could have simply put J to one side because this figure is clouded in mortal doctrine. Thus all of B's dealings were with God and never Jesus as far as his writings and recorded comments have revealed. This position is based on the facts as I see them and are not based on my own religious opinions on the matter. B was far more interested in God than me, that's for certain! If you can find comments from B that lead to conclusions other than my own (and others) I would be happy to read them. If B turned out to be the Pope in disguise I wouldn't lose any sleep over it!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
Probably the most inherrently religious composer of all was J.S.Bach - a Protestant - why does it have to be Catholic belief? you can be Christian and non-Catholic!

As has been said Beethoven's views seem to have encompassed a wide range of sources, he had a strong belief in God and this comes through not just in the religious works, but the 9th and the Gellert songs.

All Rod and I have done is to point out the known facts re. Beethoven's attitude to God, Christ and religion - our own personal beliefs are nothing to do with the debate!

Re 1st paragraph: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. I think you misunderstood my post.

Re 2nd paragraph: I know.

Re 3rd paragraph: I know, and I do not disagree. The only source of "debate" in this thread really is what is relevent. Also when posts are made which contain untrue information (as in incorrect facts), I feel that I should point it out. For example, the fact is, there was never, ever more than one pope at a time.

[~Leslie]

This thread reads like a best seller, and one of the best I've seen in here in a long time. Good job, Stout.