Beethoven and his Beloveds

[MCS]

Originally posted by Chris:

..... So, if Christ was indeed a nut, we have a religion based on the teachings of a nut in the Catholic Church....

Which would be quite miraculous, considering the institution has endured for nearly 2,000 years.

As for Beethoven's views on Christ....Since he did not leave us a written summary of his religious views, any views based on his writings will be largely conjecture. Looking at his Missa Solemnis would be, I believe, at least as illuminating.
Yes, an atheist could certainly write a mass. But there are a couple of things to consider here. Beethoven took a great deal of time and care in writing his Mass. This was not something dashed off in order to pay the rent. "My chief design when writing the Mass," he wrote,"was to arouse religious emotion in singers and auditors alike, and to render this emotion lasting." There is certainly feeling enough in his Mass - the Gloria is glorious and the Credo appropriately affirming. But there is more than vaguely 'religious' feeling in the Mass. In writing of the Credo, Vincent d'Indy in his essay on the Mass points out: "The first division, an expostition of faith in one God, in itself comprises two affirmations: 'I believe in one God, the Father Almighty,' and 'in one Lord Jesus Christ.' Both are established in the principal key of B-flat major, with a transition to the subdominant; after which the two Persons are reunited, on consubstantialem Patri (one in being with the Father), in the tonic."
The author gives other examples where certain important parts of the prayers are underlined, so to speak, using particular emotion or key changes. So would an antheist really bother to pay such attention to the details? And further, would a person who was brought up a Catholic and had rejected the Faith make sure his music expressed the particulars, empphasizing articles of faith he no longer believed? I've written too much to quote any further examples, but the music was written, as Beethoven himself said, to 'arouse religious feelings'. Would this not serve to convince the hearer of the validity of what is being sung?
Beethoven wasn't a church-going Catholic, but I don't believe that necessarily means he didn't believe in Christ's divinity.

Mary



[This message has been edited by MCS (edited 08-22-2001).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris:

John Paul II can trace his supreme authority back to Peter, who recieved his from Christ.

So could the notorious Pope Alexander VI. These people are appointed by men, and politics has been the prime motivator in this throughout the ages! The Catholic Church has too many stains on its reputation for my liking, not least its policy towards the nazis. I see little of the teachings of Christ in this.

So, if Christ was indeed a nut, we have a religion based on the teachings of a nut in the Catholic Church. If he was God, then we have a religion created by God himself in the Catholic Church. All other Christian religions broke off the Catholics (ultimately). The Catholics broke off from nobody

This I don't accept - there were other Gospels that were deliberately left out by the church councils, notably those that referred to reincarnation. The teachings of Christ are just as much interpreted by the Catholic faith as they are by the Protestants.
I don't believe Christ was a nut, but I think many who claim to represent his views since certainly are!
I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone of whatever religious denomination as I know your beliefs are sincerely and passionately held, but so are mine and any form of dogmatic adherence is anathama to me.

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'Man know thyself'

[Bob the Composer]

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin:
[b]

Originally posted by Chris:
Which also makes no sense. Jesus claimed to be God in front of many witnesses. Whatever he was, HE claimed he was God; there is no doubt about that. So, he was either God, or he was a nut. You shouldn't have a nut as a model in life!

In fact, many scholars of various persuasions believe that the claims regarding Jesus being the Son of God are not the view of Jesus himself, but later intrepretive interpolations. They contradict other remarks that appear to many to be more authentic. Check out Geza Vermes book "Jesus The Jew" or Karl Jaspers. So, like many others of his time and since, Beethoven may have gone beyond a more conventional, surface reading or interpretation of scripture. Doesn't that fit his personality?

Lets consider what you're saying for a moment Kevin. If we are to believe the Jesus being the son of God is an invention of later authors who wanted to make Jesus into God, then can we really rely on anything he says? It could have all been cooked up later by Roman Propagandists who wanted to prevent an uprising and thought that claiming that the Savior promoted peace would be a good way to do that. If we must believe that, then everything in the Bible becomes suspect. I do not believe that to be the case. Jesus was the son of God.

Bob

[This message has been edited by Bob the Composer (edited 08-22-2001).]

[Michael]

I hate to interrupt the "Jesus Reference Site" but, as the title of this thread is "Beethoven's Beloveds", I would like to alert all fans on this side of the pond to the fact that the famous (or infamous) movie "Immortal Beloved" will be broadcast at midnight next Saturday night (Aug 25th-26th) on BBC 2. It is preceded by another famous music-related opus, "Shine" starring Geoffrey Rush.
I have seen "Shine" twice. It is a highly-regarded movie but I totally disliked it. And I cannot say why. I have a grudging affection for "I.M.", though. And I cannot say why!

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
I hate to interrupt the "Jesus Reference Site" but, as the title of this thread is "Beethoven's Beloveds", I would like to alert all fans on this side of the pond to the fact that the famous (or infamous) movie "Immortal Beloved" will be broadcast at midnight next Saturday night (Aug 25th-26th) on BBC 2. It is preceded by another famous music-related opus, "Shine" starring Geoffrey Rush.
I have seen "Shine" twice. It is a highly-regarded movie but I totally disliked it. And I cannot say why. I have a grudging affection for "I.M.", though. And I cannot say why!

Michael

I think you've interrupted just in time before civil war breaks out as it usually does on this issue! Dona Nobis Pacem.

Thanks for pointing that out Michael - despite all I've said against Immortal beloved I'm prepared to give it another viewing as first impressions can be wrong, especially on Boxing day nursing a hangover when I last saw it a few years back!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-22-2001).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
So could the notorious Pope Alexander VI. These people are appointed by men, and politics has been the prime motivator in this throughout the ages! The Catholic Church has too many stains on its reputation for my liking, not least its policy towards the nazis. I see little of the teachings of Christ in this.

If you are talking about Pope Pius XII, then you don't quite have it right. Most of the comments made against him are nothing but character assassination carried out by people who are in crass ignorance. Pope Pius did have a love for the German people, that is certain, but this love would never have
moved him to approve of the genocide against the Jewish people. Pius XII has a tree planted in his honor in Israel in the forest of the Righteous Gentiles. I promise you that if the government or nation of Israel seriously believed that Pius XII was cowardly or apathetic to the plight of the Jews, they would pull that tree up today and throw it into the Dead Sea.

As to the sinfulness of other popes, all this proves is that the Catholic Church is composed of human members. This doesn't smear the whole Church.

Originally posted by Peter:
This I don't accept - there were other Gospels that were deliberately left out by the church councils, notably those that referred to reincarnation. The teachings of Christ are just as much interpreted by the Catholic faith as they are by the Protestants.
I don't believe Christ was a nut, but I think many who claim to represent his views since certainly are!
I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone of whatever religious denomination as I know your beliefs are sincerely and passionately held, but so are mine and any form of dogmatic adherence is anathama to me.

Agreed, but the point is that historically, only the successors of Peter (the bishops of Rome) have the Christ-given authority to interpret (according to the aposltes). If you want to argue that, you must either argue that Christ was not God, or that Christ did not give that authority. The Gospels that were chosen were chosen because the Church decided that those were the ones that were divinely inspired and held only truth. The others were rejected because they were not deterimed to be such. So you see, what I am saying is that if you do not follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, you are not ignoring the pope or suggesting that even having a pope is wrong, you are setting yourself up as your own pope.

But even if you're right and the whole Catholic faith is full of crap, that doesn't change my original point, here - it does not make sense to honor Christ in any way without believing he is the son of God. He believed he was the son of God (or said he was, at any rate); he either was, or he was a nut (or just a liar, of course). IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS - Beethoven either did believe Christ was the son of God, or he did not. If he did, that doesn't fit with other things he said and did. If he did not, well, that also doesn't fit with other things he said and did! So, I frankly have no idea what to think. It's a facinating situation to me.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 08-22-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS - Beethoven either did believe Christ was the son of God, or he did not. If he did, that doesn't fit with other things he said and did. If he did not, well, that also doesn't fit with other things he said and did! So, I frankly have no idea what to think. It's a facinating situation to me.

Our individual beliefs are not really the issue - the reason being that we are never going to agree, nor is the whole world on this one! It is Beethoven's views that we should be concentrating on and all the evidence suggest that he did not hold a devout Catholic view of things. His references are always to God, not the Virgin Mary or Christ as one would expect from a Catholic. I'm not convinced he believed in hell either - his reproaches to Karl never imply B is concerned about his mortal soul, rather the physical ailments that might befall him from associating with a certain type of woman!
Beethoven is not reported as being a Church goer so presumably he didn't take communion which implies he did not believe that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ - If he did believe this surely being as religious as he was and so desperately unhappy over his deafness, he would have taken communion? He states that his comfort and solace is being in the woods with God and Nature, not in a dusty old Church!

The following gives a good idea of his views (Copied, with the remark: "From Indian literature" from an
unidentified work, into the Diary of 1816.)

"God is immaterial, and for this reason transcends every
conception. Since He is invisible He can have no form. But from
what we observe in His work we may conclude that He is eternal,
omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent."

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-23-2001).]

[stout]

I really did not know this would go on so long-anyway-sorry about the Mozart reqiuem-my mistake-I was confused with Chopin I am afraid.
Anyway-Did these woman who Beethoven was involved with-Did they want to be loved by him or did they want to remain just friends and if the did-how wouold Beethoven feel?
Angry I would guess yet somehow suttle.

Regards,
Stout

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:

Our individual beliefs are not really the issue - the reason being that we are never going to agree, nor is the whole world on this one! It is Beethoven's views that we should be concentrating on and all the evidence suggest that he did not hold a devout Catholic view of things. His references are always to God, not the Virgin Mary or Christ as one would expect from a Catholic. I'm not convinced he believed in hell either - his reproaches to Karl never imply B is concerned about his mortal soul, rather the physical ailments that might befall him from associating with a certain type of woman!
Beethoven is not reported as being a Church goer so presumably he didn't take communion which implies he did not believe that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ - If he did believe this surely being as religious as he was and so desperately unhappy over his deafness, he would have taken communion? He states that his comfort and solace is being in the woods with God and Nature, not in a dusty old Church!

The following gives a good idea of his views (Copied, with the remark: "From Indian literature" from an
unidentified work, into the Diary of 1816.)

"God is immaterial, and for this reason transcends every
conception. Since He is invisible He can have no form. But from
what we observe in His work we may conclude that He is eternal,
omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent."

That may all be true, but it still doesn't address the question! But I'm tired of thinking about it anyway...

As to how Beethoven would have felt if a woman he loved did not return his love...well, don't we all know how that feels? Not so good But I don't think he ever let it get to him too much. It certainly didn't affect the quality of his music any.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
That may all be true, but it still doesn't address the question! But I'm tired of thinking about it anyway...

It may not satisfactorily answer the question but it is all we have regarding Beethoven's views on religion.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by stout:
Anyway-Did these woman who Beethoven was involved with-Did they want to be loved by him or did they want to remain just friends and if the did-how wouold Beethoven feel?
Angry I would guess yet somehow suttle.

Regards,
Stout

One of the major loves of Beethoven's life (and still considered by many as the possible Immortal beloved) was Josephine Von Brunsvik. In the years 1804-8 Beethoven fell in love with her after she had recently been widowed. She made it clear that She wanted no more than close friendship and this must have been hurtful to Beethoven. She left Vienna in 1808 and later married Baron Von Stackelberg - the marriage was not happy and this of course has added to the speculation that she may have been the intended recipient of the famous IB letters in 1812.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by MCS:
Which would be quite miraculous, considering the institution has endured for nearly 2,000 years.

As for Beethoven's views on Christ....Since he did not leave us a written summary of his religious views, any views based on his writings will be largely conjecture. Looking at his Missa Solemnis would be, I believe, at least as illuminating.
Yes, an atheist could certainly write a mass. But there are a couple of things to consider here. Beethoven took a great deal of time and care in writing his Mass. This was not something dashed off in order to pay the rent. "My chief design when writing the Mass," he wrote,"was to arouse religious emotion in singers and auditors alike, and to render this emotion lasting." There is certainly feeling enough in his Mass - the Gloria is glorious and the Credo appropriately affirming. But there is more than vaguely 'religious' feeling in the Mass. In writing of the Credo, Vincent d'Indy in his essay on the Mass points out: "The first division, an expostition of faith in one God, in itself comprises two affirmations: 'I believe in one God, the Father Almighty,' and 'in one Lord Jesus Christ.' Both are established in the principal key of B-flat major, with a transition to the subdominant; after which the two Persons are reunited, on consubstantialem Patri (one in being with the Father), in the tonic."
The author gives other examples where certain important parts of the prayers are underlined, so to speak, using particular emotion or key changes. So would an antheist really bother to pay such attention to the details? And further, would a person who was brought up a Catholic and had rejected the Faith make sure his music expressed the particulars, empphasizing articles of faith he no longer believed? I've written too much to quote any further examples, but the music was written, as Beethoven himself said, to 'arouse religious feelings'. Would this not serve to convince the hearer of the validity of what is being sung?
Beethoven wasn't a church-going Catholic, but I don't believe that necessarily means he didn't believe in Christ's divinity.

Mary

[This message has been edited by MCS (edited 08-22-2001).]

This chain has developed somewhat sice my last visit!! But I'll stick to Beethoven - most of the things I have read about B's treatment of the Credo take the opposite view of the above, ie it is apparent that B is latently rejecting much of the doctrine. Large passages of the Credo in the Missa Solemnis are zipped by, and, importantly, sung almost in plainchant. This treatment, deliberately lacking the personal touch and development shown elsewhere, could indicate a detachment by B from the doctrine, instead making it clear this is the belief of the Church.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Michael and Peter,

Did you watch 'Immortal Beloved' last Saturday night? And if so, were your opinions the same as before or did you get a different perspective on the movie after not seeing it for a while?

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Michael and Peter,

Did you watch 'Immortal Beloved' last Saturday night? And if so, were your opinions the same as before or did you get a different perspective on the movie after not seeing it for a while?

Joy

I did watch it and I still thought it was pretty awful - aside from the historical inaccuracies which were legion! Beethoven performing the Emperor concerto, I mean come on - would it have been so difficult to have had him playing the 4th instead which he actually did?

The one redeeming scene that I actually liked was B as a boy running through the woods to the strains of the 9th and merging with the stars, I thought that was quite moving, as was the opening of the film with lines from the funeral oration read by the wrong guy, Schindler!!!!

I think anyone who didn't know the story would have been left rather confused and certainly mis-informed. I was with some friends and I constantly had to point out that such and such never happened or if it did in a completely different context.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Michael and Peter, and..er..Rod

Did you watch 'Immortal Beloved' last Saturday night? And if so, were your opinions the same as before or did you get a different perspective on the movie after not seeing it for a while?

Joy

I watched it just to refresh my memory of how absolutely ridiculous and awfull it is. It presents Beethoven as nothing other than a lunatic, regardless of the numerous inacurracies. I had no sympathy for this Beethoven as presented by the movie. The whole thing is a joke and an embarrassment.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin