Beethoven and his Beloveds

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
I didn't mean 96% were celibate! I had read that statistically only 4% of the population
were of the criminal persuasion. I'm afraid that comment had nothing to do with religion, that is why I said I was getting off the track somewhat.

I know you didn't mean 96% were celibate, but I used it in the same context with the religious discussion, ie if 96% of people in general are honest, are 96% of those professing to be celibate honest! We are off the track, but we could make the track more relevant by looking into Beethoven's attitudes to Christ. B makes little of no mention of him in his letters from what I have read, I know of only two sentances spoken from him on the matter worth quoting. These are somewhat contradictory - first he is quoted as describing Jesus as "just another crucified Jew", the other is a more conventional show of admiration that I can't quite recall, said in his later years. Yet he was certainly a monotheist, and spoke of God often, but not God's 'little helper'. I doubt if B really believed Jesus was the son of God, though such things often take on a different complexion when one faces the grim reaper! This is just my impression however.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

If he had any belief is basic Christianity at all, he would have believed that Jesus was God, not mearly sent by God. I will have to check into the context of that first statement, since it doesn't really say a lot by itself.

And yes, it is a good point that sometimes people change when confronted by death.

[Bob the Composer]

Originally posted by Chris:
And yes, it is a good point that sometimes people change when confronted by death.

Very true. Even Mahler improved a little when he realized he was going to die.

<font color="green">Bob

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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I know you didn't mean 96% were celibate, but I used it in the same context with the religious discussion, ie if 96% of people in general are honest, are 96% of those professing to be celibate honest! We are off the track, but we could make the track more relevant by looking into Beethoven's attitudes to Christ. B makes little of no mention of him in his letters from what I have read, I know of only two sentances spoken from him on the matter worth quoting. These are somewhat contradictory - first he is quoted as describing Jesus as "just another crucified Jew", the other is a more conventional show of admiration that I can't quite recall, said in his later years. Yet he was certainly a monotheist, and spoke of God often, but not God's 'little helper'. I doubt if B really believed Jesus was the son of God, though such things often take on a different complexion when one faces the grim reaper! This is just my impression however.

I see your point. I have never read anything either about B discussing Jesus and he did have a high regard for God. The two things he put on top of everything else was 'God and honour.' This has been a very interesting discussion but it's time for me to leave on my vacation this weekend so I think I will give my brain a rest for a while and think of nothing but mountains, lakes, and cool breezes!!! See you all in a couple of weeks! Be good while I'm gone!!

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
If he had any belief is basic Christianity at all, he would have believed that Jesus was God, not mearly sent by God. I will have to check into the context of that first statement, since it doesn't really say a lot by itself.

I take the context to be that he believed Jesus was a mere mortal. Beethoven refers to God using the word God, rarely if ever mentioning Jesus. B would have been interested in J more as a man, for it is J the man that struggled, but even this struggle was no more than that endured by many a mere mortal. For J the God there is by default no struggle, so one could say J's sacrifice was the less, knowing for certain he would survive death. He would have made a greater sacrifice had he stayed on Earth! Surely a monotheistic God is by default the omnipresent father of everything and everybody, thus the concept of God occupying/fathering a sole body at the expence of others is incompatible with the idea of omnipresence - is it not said in the Lord's Prayer 'OUR Father'? Going off track again - Beethoven, it seems by his own use of language, preferred to deal with God direct and not so much via those who claim to speak for Him. Unless someone can put a different picture to this story, which I would be interested to read? It is certain B was not impressed by Catholic dogma, no product of the Enlightenment would be.

Originally posted by Chris:

And yes, it is a good point that sometimes people change when confronted by death.

But it is the fear of the unknown that brings the conversion here, not a revelation of religious insight.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
But it is the fear of the unknown that brings the conversion here, not a revelation of religious insight.

I must be a product of the enlightenment reincarnated for the views expressed by B on this matter are very much in accordance with my own. I also agree with your scepticism over death bed conversions - Lord Marchmain in Brideshead revisited is a classic case.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:

...context...

By context, I meant the words which came before and after it in the conversation or writing.

[M.Moes]

Claudie wrote:

...(Josephine Brunswick and the "Immortal beloved")

Josephine WAS the Immortal Beloved.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
By context, I meant the words which came before and after it in the conversation or writing.

I recall the quote I read only mentioning the words I wrote above. I'll look into it but I doubt I'll get any more useful info regarding the context of the discussion. Presuming B actually said these words, can you imagine them meaning anything other than what they explicitly state, ie that Jesus was just another Jew?

Either way, it is clear that B preferred to deal with the Father and not the Son whether he thought they were genuinely related or not (!). Any ideas as to why this would be so, especially if he was anything remotely like a true Christian?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-17-2001).]

[M.Moes]

Stout wondered:

What I am asking is how far into a relationship did Beethoven go? Did he just pine for these ladies or did he get into a serious relationship with them-it was possible he was a father?

Yes, it's possible that he was a father. The defenders of the Josephine hypothesis for the Immortal Beloved (Goldschmidt, Tellenbach) and at least one defender of the Antonie hypothesis (Lund) argue that he must have been a father. In Josephine's case because almost exactly nine months after Beethoven's letter Josephine gave birth to a daughter, notwithstanding the fact that her husband had left. In Antonie's case because eight months after Beethoven's letter Antonie gave birth to a son and Beethoven never would expressed his with to live together with the unknown women (this is clear from the letter itself) if Antonie had been pregnant by her husband. However, the discussion is going on. Last October a new candidate has been put forward in the Beethoven Journal. Her name is Almerie Esterhazy, who surely was in the right place in the right time (Bohemia, the first week of July 1812), like so many other women who must have acquainted with Beethoven. And next year an even newer one will be put forward in a German book, devoted to the late Goldschmidt. Her name is Maria Anna von Liechtenstein, also present in the right place in the right time.

[Rod]

Originally posted by M.Moes:
Stout wondered:

What I am asking is how far into a relationship did Beethoven go? Did he just pine for these ladies or did he get into a serious relationship with them-it was possible he was a father?

Yes, it's possible that he was a father. The defenders of the Josephine hypothesis for the Immortal Beloved (Goldschmidt, Tellenbach) and at least one defender of the Antonie hypothesis (Lund) argue that he must have been a father. In Josephine's case because almost exactly nine months after Beethoven's letter Josephine gave birth to a daughter, notwithstanding the fact that her husband had left. In Antonie's case because eight months after Beethoven's letter Antonie gave birth to a son and Beethoven never would expressed his with to live together with the unknown women (this is clear from the letter itself) if Antonie had been pregnant by her husband. However, the discussion is going on. Last October a new candidate has been put forward in the Beethoven Journal. Her name is Almerie Esterhazy, who surely was in the right place in the right time (Bohemia, the first week of July 1812), like so many other women who must have acquainted with Beethoven. And next year an even newer one will be put forward in a German book, devoted to the late Goldschmidt. Her name is Maria Anna von Liechtenstein, also present in the right place in the right time.

I for one care not who the Immortal Beloved is. If B had mentioned her name in the letter I suspect nothing more would have been made of this whole affair, she would have simply been yet another of the various females associated with B's affections.

We have discussed the idea here at length as to whether B could have been a father and as far as I am concerned no evidence has been presented that stands up to basic cross-examination (including the point you make above). However, in the unlikely event B actually was a father, I am absolutely 100% certain he was unaware of it.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[M.Moes]

Originally posted by Rod:
I for one care not who the Immortal Beloved is. If B had mentioned her name in the letter I suspect nothing more would have been made of this whole affair, she would have simply been yet another of the various females associated with B's affections.

We have discussed the idea here at length as to whether B could have been a father and as far as I am concerned no evidence has been presented that stands up to basic cross-examination (including the point you make above). However, in the unlikely event B actually was a father, I am absolutely 100% certain he was unaware of it.

As far as we know the letter to the IB is the only love letter by Beethoven in which he expressed his wish to live together with the unknown woman. That's more than just another affair. As for the question if Beethoven knew that he was father, that depends on the candidate. In Antonie's case he probably didn't know. In Josephine's case he probably did. The circumstances of Beethoven's relation with his beloved in both hypotheses are very different. The uneasy problem with Solomon's hypothesis is the fact that Beethoven, who wrote "Du" to his beloved, which he never would have done if she had not been in lover in every respect, must have betrayed his "best friend" (according to Schindler) Franz Brentano. No wonder that sly Solomon kept his mouth shut about little Karl Joseph Brentano! But then came Lund and pointed to this "overlooked" fact. Ever since more and more researchers began to doubt the hypothesis. In Josephine's case Beethoven must have known very well that he was a father, as argued strongly in a very convincing way by Tellenbach. However, nothing has been proven beyond any doubt, not one of the many hypotheses. We need more information.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
Either way, it is clear that B preferred to deal with the Father and not the Son whether he thought they were genuinely related or not (!). Any ideas as to why this would be so, especially if he was anything remotely like a true Christian?

Not really. Christianty holds that no one goes to the Father, except through the Son. Likewise, no one may go the Son unless the Father beckons. That is why, when he said "God," I think he either didn't mean it in a standard Christian sense, or else he meant God as in the whole Trinity. After all, three divine persons do not mean three gods; they are still all one God.

[Rod]

Originally posted by M.Moes:
As far as we know the letter to the IB is the only love letter by Beethoven in which he expressed his wish to live together with the unknown woman. That's more than just another affair.

I'm sure B would have been happy to live with most of the others he was in love with at one time or another.

Originally posted by M.Moes:

As for the question if Beethoven knew that he was father, that depends on the candidate. In Antonie's case he probably didn't know. In Josephine's case he probably did.

B's general behaviour indicates he knew nothing of any child, largely because no such child of his in fact existed!

Originally posted by M.Moes:

The circumstances of Beethoven's relation with his beloved in both hypotheses are very different. The uneasy problem with Solomon's hypothesis is the fact that Beethoven... must have betrayed his "best friend" (according to Schindler) Franz Brentano.

This is one of the reasons I have a problem with Solomon's hypothesis myself.

Originally posted by M.Moes:

No wonder that sly Solomon kept his mouth shut about little Karl Joseph Brentano! But then came Lund and pointed to this "overlooked" fact. Ever since more and more researchers began to doubt the hypothesis. In Josephine's case Beethoven must have known very well that he was a father, as argued strongly in a very convincing way by Tellenbach. However, nothing has been proven beyond any doubt, not one of the many hypotheses. We need more information.

The problem with the theorists is that they make no effort to study Beethovens true character. I certainly have and I for one have no doubt that B would not have been able to live with himself had such a love child occured, for various reasons, and the misery would have been unending. Yet for all accounts and letters there is not one single piece of evidence that B's behaviour was in the slightest way affected so in his latter years. Even the trouble with Karl would have been insignificant compared to such a circumstance. As things stand if B was indeed a knowing father, he wasn't too bothered about it, which is bizarre considering his commitment to his nephew. Even on his deathbed he made no request to see the child (which he could have reasonably done, still maintaining secrecy as to the truth) ...therefore I suggest this cannot be so.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

For those interested in the IB theories, take a look at this site
http://beethovensbeloved.com/

Apologies for being off air for 24 hours, must have been a slight technical hitch!

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'Man know thyself'