Beethoven and his Beloveds

[Chris]

Bob's giving me a headache typing in all these different colors...

[stout]

alright-I am afraid I have made myself unclear and maybe I should have said more bluntly, if you will. Did Beethoven die as a virgin? And to extend that question-Did Chopin?

Regards
Stout

[Peter]

Originally posted by stout:
alright-I am afraid I have made myself unclear and maybe I should have said more bluntly, if you will. Did Beethoven die as a virgin? And to extend that question-Did Chopin?

Regards
Stout

Chopin definitely did not die a virgin! For many years he had a relationship with George Sand (who was actually a woman famous for wearing trousers and smoking cigars - oh and some novels!)

We can't know for certain about Beethoven without asking him! I doubt very much that he died a virgin, but does it really matter?

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Beethoven - not entirely sure.

Chopin - I would think he did not die a virgin. He did have an affair with George Sand, and possibly one other as well.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
Could you rephrase that? I didn't quite understand

I only meant that the moral ethics of Beethoven's world and of our present world is not the same. They seem to have declined considerably since Beethoven's time so today
even an unmarried Catholic (or a married one) may not have the same principles of those of the past. Now, of course, this is very generalized. I'm not talking about everyone!!

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Not in B's case I think, as Chris has pointed out he was not devout. I'm not really up on the doctrinal side of things, but I know that when Liszt became an Abbe , he didn't go the whole hog as he was not willing to take a vow of celibacy!

That's cheating!!

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
Damnable lies perptuated by people with an agenda against the Catholic Church. The few who act in this manner just happen to draw all the attention. What a shame we'd rather hear about the instances of perversion and corruption from the media instead of those of charity and kindness. That's why I never watch the news on TV - too depressing!

I agree with you, Chris! I never watch the news either. I stopped some time ago. It's enough when I read the morning paper to get me on my soapbox!!!

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
Presuming such vows of celibacy were and are part of the 'major' orders. Please explain why every bishop seems to have at least one love child or he 'likes' little boys or he is a practising homosexual? This vow is surely a sham? Join us Protestants Chris, our men of the cloth can shag whoever or whatever they want...animal, mineral, vegetable...freely and without shame.

Certainly if you are of a randy persuasion, the best thing you can do is join the Church.

hmmmm...'shag' as in carpet? (Just kidding)! But seriously, Rod, don't you think you're stero typing a bit? "Every Bishop" come on! Chris is right about the fact that the news only talks about the wayward souls of the cloths never the charitable ones, etc. Only 4% of the population are criminals and that's all you hear about. What about the other 96%? The way they talk about it over the news, you'd think everyone and his mother was a criminal!!
(I think I may have strayed from the subject a bit here)!

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 08-15-2001).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by stout:
alright-I am afraid I have made myself unclear and maybe I should have said more bluntly, if you will. Did Beethoven die as a virgin? And to extend that question-Did Chopin?

Regards
Stout

Didn't Beethoven visit some brothels and prostitutes in his day? (Of course, you never know what went on behind those closed doors)!!

[Chris]

Originally posted by Joy:
Didn't Beethoven visit some brothels and prostitutes in his day? (Of course, you never know what went on behind those closed doors)!!

Yes, that is possible. I mentioned that in my original reply.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Yes, that is possible. I mentioned that in my original reply.

I used to think this was likely, but if he did he was damn lucky to escape with just a good time to remember - Schubert of course did use prostitutes and was less fortunate!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
hmmmm...'shag' as in carpet? (Just kidding)! But seriously, Rod, don't you think you're stero typing a bit? "Every Bishop" come on! Chris is right about the fact that the news only talks about the wayward souls of the cloths never the charitable ones, etc. Only 4% of the population are criminals and that's all you hear about. What about the other 96%? The way they talk about it over the news, you'd think everyone and his mother was a criminal!!
(I think I may have strayed from the subject a bit here)!

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 08-15-2001).]

Having 'sexual relations' does not exclude one from being charitable! However, by default I am suspicious of any celibate order, it's bound to attract all sorts of people with sexual hang-ups and also other people that will take advantage of them. Even the highest Catholic in Ireland has a love child, so what does that say for the rest? Don't tell me that the 96% are actually observing the celibacy vow. No way!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

There is a difference between clergy for whom this behavior is frequent and clergy who have made a mistake a two. The latter is forgivable, since the Church considers all men sinners. Those men can win forgiveness in the eyes of the Church in the confessional. The former case is most likely a case where there were people admitted to the priesthood who should not have been. The candidates for the priesthood are considered much more carefully now. For a while there it seemed they took just about anybody! Even so, I can't imagine why anyone would want to become a priest and take a voy of celibacy unless he really wanted to. Baring some sort of mental problem (which would hopefully be caught in these days), that would seem hightly illogical. Many men simply leave the priesthood if they feel they can't live with their vows anyway.

Speaking for myself, I have lived all over the United States and I have never encountered a priest or bishop who has been proven to have violated his vow of celibacy (or even been accused of it, for that matter). I think it is fairly rare, honestly. I did, however, once belong to a parish where there was a priest who (after I had moved away) stole $10,000 in charity money and went to prison I saw that coming a mile away, too; he frequently skipped parts of the mass, generally didn't know what he was talking about, and was basically a jerk. People like that should have been stopped at the door.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
Having 'sexual relations' does not exclude one from being charitable! However, by default I am suspicious of any celibate order, it's bound to attract all sorts of people with sexual hang-ups and also other people that will take advantage of them. Even the highest Catholic in Ireland has a love child, so what does that say for the rest? Don't tell me that the 96% are actually observing the celibacy vow. No way!!

I didn't mean 96% were celibate! I had read that statistically only 4% of the population
were of the criminal persuasion. I'm afraid that comment had nothing to do with religion, that is why I said I was getting off the track somewhat.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
There is a difference between clergy for whom this behavior is frequent and clergy who have made a mistake a two. The latter is forgivable, since the Church considers all men sinners. Those men can win forgiveness in the eyes of the Church in the confessional. The former case is most likely a case where there were people admitted to the priesthood who should not have been. The candidates for the priesthood are considered much more carefully now. For a while there it seemed they took just about anybody! Even so, I can't imagine why anyone would want to become a priest and take a voy of celibacy unless he really wanted to. Baring some sort of mental problem (which would hopefully be caught in these days), that would seem hightly illogical. Many men simply leave the priesthood if they feel they can't live with their vows anyway.

Speaking for myself, I have lived all over the United States and I have never encountered a priest or bishop who has been proven to have violated his vow of celibacy (or even been accused of it, for that matter). I think it is fairly rare, honestly. I did, however, once belong to a parish where there was a priest who (after I had moved away) stole $10,000 in charity money and went to prison I saw that coming a mile away, too; he frequently skipped parts of the mass, generally didn't know what he was talking about, and was basically a jerk. People like that should have been stopped at the door.

Well said!!