Beethoven and his Beloveds

[Rod]

Originally posted by MCS:
Thank you Peter but what I asked for was what did Beethoven actually say about his beliefs. Many others seem to have said a great deal about what he thought, or what they believe he thought. You did earlier quote something from some eastern source about God being invisible, omnipotent, etc. But that doesn't mean that he held any other beliefs of eastern religions. All I'm saying is that we have to look at what he said and did himself and not what biographers, no matter how venerable, say that he believed or felt or thought. (Unless, of course, they can back their opinions up with quotes from the man himself.)

B actually said very little indeed in conversation about his religious beliefs, thus we rely on what he has written and biographers! I believe Beethoven had developed his own personal 'doctrine' on the matter, taking from here and there what seemed wise and rational - thus B is not a Hindu nor an Egyptian Sun God worshiper, nor indeed a genuine Christian. It would be more in his nature to do this than bow blindly to the single doctrine of lesser men in frocks. Can you live with this perspective? It is based on all the facts that are known. To deviate far from this is to allow ones own prejudices to cloud the truth. I can live with it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by MCS:

And, by the way, how did he 'deviate from the ritual' in the Missa Solemnis?

Mary

The Mass in C is B's 'proper' Mass. I would have thought you should be able to tell us why the Solemn Mass is not 'porper'!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
If Beethoven really understood the history of the Church, he would have seen a history full of compassion and mercy, with a few incidents of evil men doing evil deeds. And even if he didn't, then what he should have realized is that the Church was never meant to be a political body, and any time it acted as such, it was prone to all the errors of any other political body. The Church is a religious body, and any judgments on its validity must be made from a religious context. And it seems to me that that is exactly what he did, actually. I don't see anything that really tells me he was concerned with the history of it all, just the beliefs and practices.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 09-03-2001).]

The Church has always been a political body, (certainly since is became accepted by the Roman Empire), which is why B paid it no attention. As I have said B may have had sympathy with the ultimate Christian vision of God, but most of the rest is the result of wholely mortal small minded self interest. You must isolate the vision from the reality of the Church to understand B's position. Show me any evidence where B observed the beliefs and practices of the one associates with the Catholic Church, other than receive the last rites (!), and I have known many real Christians over the years. What evidence there is only points to his dissatisfaction with (or he was unconvinced by) the doctrine of the Church. I don't see how this can be looked at in any other way. Other than at this Forum, I doubt anyone would question this position.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-04-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by MCS:
All I'm saying is that we have to look at what he said and did himself and not what biographers, no matter how venerable, say that he believed or felt or thought. (Unless, of course, they can back their opinions up with quotes from the man himself.)

Mary

I really don't see what the problem is or why the Catholic members of this forum are in any way offended by our questioning of Beethoven's stance in this matter - It would make no odds to me whatever denomination Beethoven adhered to , it just seems that he didn't strictly adhere to any - why is this such a contentious remark?

It is said that once he narrowly escaped excommunication for having said that Jesus was only a poor human being and a Jew.
Haydn, ingenuously pious, is reported to have called Beethoven an atheist(presumably because Beethoven questioned the accepted doctrine).

His favorite book was Sturm's "Observations
Concerning God's Works in Nature" (Betrachtungen uber die Werke
Gottes in der Natur), which he recommended to the priests for
wide distribution among the people.

No one including those who knew Beethoven ever claimed he was a devout and unquestioning Catholic, except some people on this forum who seem offended if Rod or I suggest otherwise!


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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
The Church has always been a political body, (certainly since is became accepted by the Roman Empire), which is why B paid it no attention. As I have said B may have had sympathy with the ultimate Christian vision of God, but most of the rest is the result of wholely mortal small minded self interest. You must isolate the vision from the reality of the Church to understand B's position. Show me any evidence where B observed the beliefs and practices of the one associates with the Catholic Church, other than receive the last rites (!), and I have known many real Christians over the years. What evidence there is only points to his dissatisfaction with (or he was unconvinced by) the doctrine of the Church. I don't see how this can be looked at in any other way. Other than at this Forum, I doubt anyone would question this position.

No one is questioning that position! (Well, I'm not.) I'm only discussing the ways you are coming to that conclusion. The only real debate in which I paticipate in this topic is when you say something retarded and I have to correct you

As for the archive - I think it's a good idea, and I will set it up later today. Maybe start thinking about some of the threads you all think should be in it.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
No one is questioning that position! (Well, I'm not.) I'm only discussing the ways you are coming to that conclusion. The only real debate in which I paticipate in this topic is when you say something retarded and I have to correct you

I don't recall saying anything retarded with regard to this issue, nor you correcting me in any convincing manner. I suggest your own position lacks clarity

Originally posted by Chris:

As for the archive - I think it's a good idea, and I will set it up later today. Maybe start thinking about some of the threads you all think should be in it.

I suggested as much to Peter when this site first began (ie keeping the good chains and deleting just the shorter or less interesting ones). Thus I thought this had been going on already. Obviously not!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

I've been pretty silent so far in this whole discussion but now I have to jump in.
I am certainly not in any way offended by
religious remarks made in this thread, actually more offended by the word 'retarded.' Do we still use that word today?
Of course there's a lot of politics going on in the religious world - any religion - and it's been that way forever! You can't deny that. Also there's been a lot of bloodshed 'in the name of Jesus' throughout history.
I don't know why it's so hard to accept or admit this. The only thing I have read about B's Catholic roots is that he was baptised (and he had no say about that) and receiving the last rites and they practically had to force that on him. Let's face it, B saw more God and religion in nature and believing in God in his own way rather than by the conventional method. Why is this upsetting so many people? I can't believe this entire thread!! Peter and Rod make a lot of sense.
They are absolutedly correct!!!

Joy

P.S.: Was that Rod who left a 'winking' symbol? Cute. Will wonders ever cease??


[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 09-05-2001).]

[Chris]

Oh? You said, "Sometimes there were two contesting Popes fighting for supremacy." That is not true. Consider yourself corrected. A technicality perhaps, but true nevertheless.

[Chris]

"I suggested as much to Peter when this site first began (ie keeping the good chains and deleting just the shorter or less interesting ones). Thus I thought this had been going on already. Obviously not!"

Well, an archive is a little different than that (in the context of this software, anyway). But now that you mention it we should probably prune some of the older, shorter threads.

[NickB]

Originally posted by Joy:

The only thing I have read about B's Catholic
roots is that he was baptised (and he had no say about that) and receiving the last rites
and they practically had to force that on him.

I thought he said "don't be an ass" to his brother in response to whether he wanted to see a priest near his death. Then, I read about how he asked to see "his reverence, the pastor" on his deathbed in one of the accounts in _Impressions by His Contemporaries_.

Let's face it, B saw more God and religion in nature and believing in God in his own way rather than by the conventional method.

I guess I have always "known" B to have been a practising deist after the manner of his enlightened times. I don't recall how I ever came to "know" this, but it strikes me as fairly common knowledge.

Aren't there stories of how his friends were worried about his loud criticisms of the church (or individuals within the church, perhaps?) in public places possibly getting him into trouble?

[Joy]

Originally posted by NickB:
I guess I have always "known" B to have been a practising deist after the manner of his enlightened times. I don't recall how I ever came to "know" this, but it strikes me as fairly common knowledge.

Aren't there stories of how his friends were worried about his loud criticisms of the church (or individuals within the church, perhaps?) in public places possibly getting him into trouble?

Yes, I've read this too. I've read where B
refused last rites and 'turned his head to the wall' then I've read where he accepted last rites and actually thanked the priest 'for giving him peace'. I think the latter is now more accepted.
It's true B was loud in his opinions against the government and perhaps the church as well and in public places at that! They say he had a lot of enemies, could this be one of the reasons...you tell me...probably.

Joy

[MCS]

Originally posted by Peter:
...No one including those who knew Beethoven ever claimed he was a devout and unquestioning Catholic, except some people on this forum who seem offended if Rod or I suggest otherwise!

I know and will readily admit that he wasn't observant of Catholic religious practises. He had no need of religious services or organized religion. That doesn't mean that he necessarily dismissed everything the Catholic Church teaches. He may have accepted some of it or not. I don't think a definite statement can be made regarding exactly what he did believe.

[Peter]

Originally posted by MCS:
I know and will readily admit that he wasn't observant of Catholic religious practises. He had no need of religious services or organized religion. That doesn't mean that he necessarily dismissed everything the Catholic Church teaches. He may have accepted some of it or not. I don't think a definite statement can be made regarding exactly what he did believe.

Mary I don't think I or Rod have said he rejected everything the Catholic Church says! We know that his references to religion are always to God, not the Pope, Christ or the Virgin Mary. As far as I am aware in all his letters and writings there is hardly a single reference to these others. Here are some examples in his own words:

"Go to the devil with your 'gracious Sir!' There is only one
who can be called gracious, and that is God."

(About 1824 or 1825, to Rampel, a copyist, who, apparently, had
been a little too obsequious in his address to Beethoven.)

"What is all this compared with the great Tonemaster above!
above! above! and righteously the Most High, whereas here below
all is mockery,--dwarfs,--and yet Most High!!"

(To Schott, publisher in Mayence, in 1822)

"He who is above,--O, He is, and without Him there is
nothing." (Diary)

"It was not the fortuitous meeting of the chordal atoms that
made the world; if order and beauty are reflected in the
constitution of the universe, then there is a God." (Diary, 1816.)

"Wrapped in the shadows of eternal solitude, in the
impenetrable darkness of the thicket, impenetrable, immeasurable,
unapproachable, formlessly extended. Before spirit was breathed
(into things) his spirit was, and his only. As mortal eyes (to
compare finite and infinite things) look into a shining mirror."


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Oh? You said, "Sometimes there were two contesting Popes fighting for supremacy." That is not true. Consider yourself corrected. A technicality perhaps, but true nevertheless.

I was being somewhat jocular with my original remark, you were fully aware of the point I was making. I am aware that Popes cannot be self proclaimed, but Popes can be corruptly selected.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:


P.S.: Was that Rod who left a 'winking' symbol? Cute. Will wonders ever cease??

My use of the symbol was cynical, not cute. You should know me by now!

About B receiving the last rites, I think B was advised to receive them rather than B requesting them. But he seems to have had no problem with receiving the rites. I think this ritual was such an ingrained and expected part of his culture that it would not have occured to him to make an issue of it, certainly not during his last days. Not that I have the faintest idea what the priest would have been saying, but I presume the rites offer the doomed one some comfort before the reaper strikes!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
I was being somewhat jocular with my original remark, you were fully aware of the point I was making. I am aware that Popes cannot be self proclaimed, but Popes can be corruptly selected.

Indeed, but please remember I work with circuits and electricity all day. "Technical" is the only way I know