What do you think of Op. 41?

[Chris]

Op. 41, for flute and piano, is an arrangement of the Serenade Op. 25. From what I know, the arrangement was made by Franz Xaver Kleinheinz, but Beethoven corrected and approved it, so that makes it worthy of a look to me.

I like this arrangement, and it makes me wonder what might have happened if Beethoven had written a proper flute sonata. (There is Anh 4, which is a nice enough work, but not certainly by Beethoven.) I have always enjoyed Beethoven's handling of the flute, from Op. 25 itself, to the Op. 105 and Op. 107 variations, to the main theme of the first movement of the 7th symphony, which I find to be one of the most beautiful moments in all of his symphonies.

He seemed to have more love for the instrument than Mozart, who seems to have favored the clarinet.

Incidentally, Op. 41 is supposedly for flute or violin, but while I see it played and recorded often enough on the flute, I have never seen anyone play it or record it on the violin. Perhaps the 10 violin sonatas and other chamber works for violin and piano are enough to keep the violinists busy?

[Roehre]

Op. 41, for flute and piano, is an arrangement of the Serenade Op. 25. From what I know, the arrangement was made by Franz Xaver Kleinheinz, but Beethoven corrected and approved it, so that makes it worthy of a look to me.

I like this arrangement, and it makes me wonder what might have happened if Beethoven had written a proper flute sonata. (There is Anh 3, which is a nice enough work, but not certainly by Beethoven.) I have always enjoyed Beethoven's handling of the flute, from Op. 25 itself, to the Op. 105 and Op. 107 variations, to the main theme of the first movement of the 7th symphony, which I find to be one of the most beautiful moments in all of his symphonies.

He seemed to have more love for the instrument than Mozart, who seems to have favored the clarinet.

Incidentally, Op. 41 is supposedly for flute or violin, but while I see it played and recorded often enough on the flute, I have never seen anyone play it or record it on the violin. Perhaps the 10 violin sonatas and other chamber works for violin and piano are enough to keep the violinists busy?

I personally like the work and I prefer it to opus 25.
Beethoven possibly wrote that flute sonata (in B-flat, Kinsky Anh.4). It was found among his papers after his death. A nice work, which -if it is an authentic Beethoven- stems from around 1790, so one of the last of his Bonn-years.

[Chris]

(in B-flat, Kinsky Anh.4)

Oops, good eye; I fixed that in my post.

I'm glad to hear someone else enjoys this arrangement. Have you ever encountered it played on the violin?

[Roehre]

I'm glad to hear someone else enjoys this arrangement [op.41]. Have you ever encountered it played on the violin?

No. I haven't. I only heard one of the opus 105 or 107 variations (as it is some 30 years ago I haven't a clue anymore which one I'm afraid ) played on violin.

Mind you, of the clarinet/bassoon duos WoO 27 violin/cello recordings do exist, and the oboe trio opus 87 as oboe+piano-sonata. but op.41/105/107 seem to be overlooked for their alternative versions.

[Chris]

Mind you, of the clarinet/bassoon duos WoO 27 violin/cello recordings do exist

I just bought a disc with those, actually, but haven't received it yet.

and the oboe trio opus 87 as oboe+piano-sonata.

Interesting. I did not know of this arrangement; I'll have to look into it.

but op.41/105/107 seem to be overlooked for their alternative versions.

Yes, perhaps because there is a lot of music for violin and piano as it is, with the 10 violin sonatas and Woo 40, 41, and 42. But since I love the violin I am always interested in the alternate violin versions. I have not seen Op. 41 played on the violin, but I do have a recording of Op. 105 played on the violin and a recording of Op. 107 played half on the flute and half on the violin.

[Chris]

Apparently I am not the only one interested in these violin versions. From the Unheard Beethoven site:

The sets of variations for piano with violin or flute were published by Thomson in 1819. The flute versions are quite well known and are frequently recorded. Oddly enough, however, the violin versions of these airs and variations have rarely been heard; op. 105 was recorded once and op. 107 has never been completely recorded in a violin version.

Acclaimed Chicago violinist Rachel Barton Pine performed these variations, op. 105 and 107, live on WFMT-FM, 98.7 in Chicago, as part of the "Live from WFMT" series in January, 2005. The Unheard Beethoven worked with Ms. Barton Pine to assemble the most complete performance ever of Beethoven's works for violin and piano at one time, including advising her of the existence of these variations. The recordings of these works, with accompanist Matthew Hagle, are presented here with the kind permission of Rachel Barton Pine and WFMT.

So you can listen to the violin versions of Op. 105 and Op. 107 there.

[Michael]

Strangely, about an hour before I read this thread, I was listening to the original Opus 25.
I bought a Philips double CD set years ago called "Beethoven's Complete Music for Flute" - a completely ridiculous title but it did contain all the National Airs with Variations for flute and piano. It also contained Opus 41 but, very oddly, it also included its original, Opus 25. All this, plus the doubtful Sonata in B flat for flute and piano made up the "complete" flute music!
However, since then, I have preferred the flute and piano version of Opus 25. I also like B's arrangement of the Septet for piano trio.

[Roehre]

Strangely, about an hour before I read this thread, I was listening to the original Opus 25.
I bought a Philips double CD set years ago called "Beethoven's Complete Music for Flute" - a completely ridiculous title but it did contain all the National Airs with Variations for flute and piano. It also contained Opus 41 but, very oddly, it also included its original, Opus 25. All this, plus the doubtful Sonata in B flat for flute and piano made up the "complete" flute music!
However, since then, I have preferred the flute and piano version of Opus 25. I also like B's arrangement of the Septet for piano trio.

One time in the mid 1970s this full-prize 2LP Philips set (Gazzeloni IIRC) was the only alternative to the budget-prized 3LPs (available separately or as set) on Richesse Classique with Rampal as principal flautist. These included a Trio for 3 flutes in G which hasn't been recorded anywhere else (and is not included in the Kinsky Anhang, but mentioned in its 1978 supplement as highly unlikely to be Beethoven's), as well as the Duo WoO 26 and the flute-bassoon-pf-trio WoO 37. These LPs (and VOX CDs on which they have been re-issued) were rightly titled Beethoven Musique de Chambre avec flute

[Michael]

Yes, I remember having one of those vinyl discs in the 70's - it included that trio for three flutes. I was able to get all of the contents of that single record on another strange double CD set from Vox called "Beethoven and Schlick - Chamber Music for Flute" which somehow managed to include the Opus 16 quintet (which does not use a flute) and four pieces for mandolin and cembalo! Oh - and the "Spring" sonata (for, needless to say, violin and piano.) The single piece by Schlick (1748-1818) was exactly six minutes long and it was for mandolin. I have the box in front of me as I write and it says distinctly: "Beethoven/Schlick: Kammermusik fur Flote (with umlauts)

I remember this really bizarre CD being reviewed at the time by Tully Potter who said something like: "Who the hell put this CD together? We all know who Schlick is - but who is this fellow Beethoven?".

I bought the set because it was cheap and I wanted the Rampal pieces and especially the mandolin works. I have several recordings of these sonatinas but these versions employ a harpsichord - the only Beethoven works in my collection that have this instrument (as far as I can remember - except for two short folksong arrangements.)

I tried Googling the single word Schlick just now and got a very rude result. Seriously. Then I put in his dates as given above and -lo and behold- all I got was information on my weird CD.

I've found something here (if anybody's interested.) I've edited this posting so much I've almost forgotten what it was originally about!

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&so...rlz=1R2GGIE_en