Major and Minor Scales

[Ed C]

You cracked me up on that one!

It's very late and I just finished watching Gotterdammerung. Need to lighten the mood

[Sorrano]

It's very late and I just finished watching Gotterdammerung. Need to lighten the mood

I totally understand that. Wagner was not light on drama.

[Peter]

Yes Peter, we know very well you are trying to provoke me. I hope you don't pin all of your arguments on Russolo. We have had this argument before (well, a part of it), and we never really defined how we understand avant garde : a particularly 50s / 60 / 70s movement (Cage, Fluxus ...), or something alive today. Please don't talk to me about Halliwell (or however you spell his name).

Can we get something right once and for all : I do find certain noises appealing (car honks that create unexpected dissonant/consonant intervals that morph over time, birdsong[noise], leaves frotting, rain on a window, water over rocks, fire, crunching gravel ...), and I resent the implication that this makes me errant in some way. I find it astonishing that there are those who consider these sounds (noises) to be unmusical. As they occur in the environment without compositional intent, ok, they are noises, but more importantly they represent a rich source of musically exploitable material.

Firstly I wasn't attempting to provoke you (though it's quite predictable when you'll suddenly reappear), merely expressing my own opinion which I suppose amounts to the same thing to you! Interesting that in your 'resentful ' list you mainly list pleasant natural sounds such as birdsong, water, leaves, but with car honks thrown in to wreck the idyll conjured up - I think you'll just have to accept gracefully that you're in a very small minority indeed if you find jets, lawn mowers etc.. a welcome 'musical' sound but might I suggest moving close to an airport or perhaps a motorway to indulge the passion? I would imagine most people here probably prefer a Beethoven symphony to a Boeing 747 but I wouldn't be so certain about the tea - I prefer coffee

[Megan]

Philip, I don't think anyone would find birdsong or a babbling brook to be unmusical, in fact there are CD's with the sounds of nature, which I find very soothing. A particular natural sound I find that can sooth me to sleep is listening to crickets making their little chirpy sounds all night long, I used to be lulled to sleep by them when I lived in Canada.
But, when it comes to car horns, hovering helicopters, or the screech of police car sirens, etc. just makes me want to put my ear plugs in.

[The Dude]

Well EdC, reading the posting above by The Dude it certainly seems you have a fan-cum-slave. Do I detect some irony in his (her) postings? Or am I just jealous? Do tell. (Add icon. You have carte blanche.)

This comment was posted on 1st April was it not? I thought so...
The Dude knows the ropes.

[The Dude]

It is a problem, agreed. Some musicians are so cowed that they choose to drop the term "music" altogether and use "sonic art" or "sound design" instead, reserving the word "music" up to (let's say) 1911 and ""sonic art" for anything "atonal", to vastly simplify the argument.
Me? I say nonsense! Or rather merde. What is music to my ears is music.

Come on, man, you're stealing all my lines... "cowed"!!! Also, what's with the foul language - run out of new words?

[Ed C]

A particular natural sound I find that can sooth me to sleep is listening to crickets making their little chirpy sounds all night long, I used to be lulled to sleep by them when I lived in Canada.
But, when it comes to car horns, hovering helicopters, or the screech of police car sirens, etc. just makes me want to put my ear plugs in.

Environmental sounds can have musical attributes, absolutely agree on that. You could derive pitches from any sound really. But I would draw the line at calling "chance derived" sounds as music - and for all intents and purposes environmental sounds are kind of a chance operation. In fact that's what the silent piece 4'33'' is all about. That "piece" is all about listening to the sounds of the environment, not the musician on stage. Works like that I really consider "theater".

[Ed C]

I totally understand that. Wagner was not light on drama.

Or ego.

Wagner's 5 Favorite Composers:
1. Wagner
2. Wagner
3. Wagner
4. Wagner
5. Beethoven

[Ed C]

Here's an example of what I would call "NOT MUSIC"

Pierre Schaeffer - Symphonie Pour Un Homme Seul (1950)
It's kind of entertaing tho as a sound fx record.

(edit - I removed the YT link - it was kinda creeping me out...)

[Sorrano]

Here's an example of what I would call "NOT MUSIC"

Pierre Schaeffer - Symphonie Pour Un Homme Seul (1950)
It's kind of entertaing tho as a sound fx record.

(edit - I removed the YT link - it was kinda creeping me out...)

Invariably, I will have to look this up, now. You've made me rather curious.

This may be one of those situations where I should have stayed within the confines of my CZ.

[The Dude]

I have issues with the term "comfort zone", as it implies smugness. Besides, a CZ for one might be a stressful zone for another. I'll give you an example. Some people are only happy and in "the zone" when they are cerebral, unable to contemplate a "zone" which is merely physical. For the predominantly physical person, being in a cerebral zone can cause discomfort. What I'm saying is that the term "comfort" itself is misleading. For fear that these comments lead to a blather of argument about semantics (taking me out of my CZ), lets assume that within any given day people may shift from one 'zone' to another without its having the least impact on whether or not they are 'experiencing something new'. Moving from the 'zone' might be a tiny step for one and a giant for another.

Another element of a move from the so-called CZ is that it can actually be of immediate benefit, not an experiment or search of the new, which later may bear fruit as has been suggested. In order to seek meaning in new experiences - ergo receptive to the new, innovative or avant garde - a person is probably already intelligent and liberally-minded. It is the order of magnitude of the new 'discovery' itself which will suggest these things. Also, confidence is another prerequisite for moving from 'the zone'.

I know people for whom a CZ is sitting with a group of people and being in general agreement with a discussion, point of view or values. Personally, I move outside THEIR comfort zone every time I open my mouth and say something provocative, but that is exactly MY comfort zone - to interrogate, disrupt, challenge, satirize, provoke, laugh. I'm bored otherwise.

So, I think it's glib and patronizing to talk about comfort zones - y'all.

[Sorrano]

TheDude, if you look at the last post on the first page of this thread (at least that is where it occurs in my browser) you will see that Ed has already made this point on CZ's. I think we are all pretty much in agreement that it is not necessarily the best term to use and I've tried to not refer to that; however my last post is more tongue-in-cheek in reference to that ambiguous personal zone. I forgot to add the smiley.

[The Dude]

Yes he did, but I think my comments moved the issue still further. I felt this 'debate' on CZ had a little further to play since it inevitably involves the listening public on a wider scale. From my experience audiences seem willing to give a new work a decent hearing, once they have been 'lured' into the concert or recital hall by another work. From that they can judge whether or not the new work has merit. It is the avant garde itself which so alienates audiences with its pretentions to superiority, just for starters. Giddee-up!

[Sorrano]

So what creates these "pretentions to superiority" with the avant garde? Is this any different today than it was in the time of Haydn and Mozart where concert hall music itself was more of an elitist experience than that for the common man?

[The Dude]

Yes, man, good question!! No matter how 'elitist' you might consider the classical composers to be, they still had a workaday job to produce music for the nobility's enjoyment and, later, the concert-going public. No grants for them, or the luxury of unemployment benefits. Today's musical "experiments" are conducted in a university or computer 'laboratory', not using 'language' with which people are familiar - and don't trot out the old chestnut about Beethoven alienating people by moving music forwards - that is meant to be alienating and confronting. I don't mind if the A-G does this; don't get me wrong. I just don't want music-lovers criticized for not being progressive and moving 'ahead' because they can't tolerate their "sound-design" (thanks Ed) or noise.

I also agree with Peter about noise. I also think much of today's youth culture produces 'noise' and not music - so don't become too precious about it!